The Force Awakens - 20 x better than the prequels!

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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Cletus »

GreyWizzard wrote:This will help explain Rey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Max Landis just wants attention. You're playing into his ruse. Enjoy his take on Superman, watch Chronicle if you already haven't and you've pretty much soaked up anything valuable Max Landis has to offer.

And if Po is gay, I'll never Star Wars again. Well, until the next Star Wars.

On a side note I built these to make Tobias a super awesome hanging Star Wars mobile. Just have to figure out the balance and hanging..but I'm using a baby mobile I've dismantled so it shouldn't be too hard.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GameHED »

I wish they could all dance and sing praises to robocop their father who died so they could be created from the scrap parts of his butt. Everything is so grey and silver. Why not add some forks ad spoons?
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

Wait... I say that I find Rey to be a Mary Sue I'm suddenly parroting Max Landis? Thus was my own thought, that everything was too easy for her, and that she happened to be in incredible situations that just happened to allow her to interact with every past member onscreen. Looking around I discovered the term Mary Sue, read up on it and saw that it fits her character perfectly. Rey is the perfect representation of a Mary Sue with zero wiggle room. It's nuts.

But sure, Max Landis said it even though I wasn't reading anything of his on twitter about the film as I hadn't seen it yet and he was posting flatout spoilers.

So yeah, I'm just a parrot.

Thanks dude, glad to see you don't think I have an opinion of my own.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

This is a good article - In Defense of George Lucas - http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/29/ ... orge-lucas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People are actually trying to tear down the original films to help prop up this film. FFS, this is a good blockbuster that is popular because people love the original films so much. It has a wonderful diverse cast, and is highly enjoyable. It has it's flaws, it really does, but if you enjoy it just fucking enjoy it.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by unfnknblvbl »

what bugs me is that anybody criticising Rey for being a Mary Sue out there in socialmedialand is automatically considered a misogynistic men's rights activist piece of shit.
I'm sorry, what? I like Rey. Her character is very well played, she's just extremely poorly written. And yes, I'd say the same if she were a he.

Of course, these concerns may all be made null and void with the next film and anything in between, but if that's the case then this film fails again; it needs to stand on its own, ffs. This is the first time we've seen what's undisputedly the hero of the series, and if this is an attempt to build up mystery to promote other media, then it's a pretty lame one.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Mavy »

I thought for sure they said that the storm troopers were clones when discussing why Finn went rogue. Haven't seen it since opening night and haven't heard anyone else say the same. Must be crazy.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

unfnknblvbl wrote:what bugs me is that anybody criticising Rey for being a Mary Sue out there in socialmedialand is automatically considered a misogynistic men's rights activist piece of shit.
I'm sorry, what? I like Rey. Her character is very well played, she's just extremely poorly written. And yes, I'd say the same if she were a he.

Of course, these concerns may all be made null and void with the next film and anything in between, but if that's the case then this film fails again; it needs to stand on its own, ffs. This is the first time we've seen what's undisputedly the hero of the series, and if this is an attempt to build up mystery to promote other media, then it's a pretty lame one.
Okay so what exactly did you want from her? Where do you feel the writing for her character failed and/or is poorly written?
This is something I've seen consistently from people in this forum where they want something more from a show/movie/scene where sometimes what you see is simply all it is. In the case of Rey, she's obviously been hidden because she is important and clearly gifted. Sometimes people are actually just kick arse and excel in whatever situation they are placed in.
Broken characters with detailed and complex writing behind them are great and all but fuck.. It's the first of the trilogy...give her a break. She's a mystery... So many questions around her.. And really.. Would be all that interested in her if she was just bland and somewhat useless?
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

Luke was. He was a whiney little shit who needed a bunch of help. Look at how he is regarded now.

He was a well developed character.

She has no real depth, yeah she is a mystery but not one we will get to solve, they'll just tell us. Some more hints to who she was should have been given. I feel I know the villain Kylo better than I know Rey. I have a better idea of Finn, he is a guy who made a decision. He could see the injustices and wanted to do something more. Sure at first he was just fleeing, but the more he understood the mire he wanted to help.

Rey just flipped and jumped and lucked her way through everything... meh
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by unfnknblvbl »

See, the thing is, she is bland. By the very fact that she's excellent at everything she does (she can fly the Millennium Falcon at expert level almost straight away, ffs!), she's already been portrayed as being bland. I honestly think that Rey was one area where the film could have used a lot more apeing from the original; Luke got himself into shit that he couldn't instantly get himself out of all the time.

It's like in The Simpsons when they introduced Poochy - "can you Rastify him by say, 10%?" - they just went "can we make her appear 10% more badass?". Yes, she's badass. No arguments there. But she's also boring at the same time. Again, going back to the original film, Luke's mystery wasn't core to the plot. It wasn't core to making you go see the next film. In this, Rey is mysterious for the sake of being mysterious to make you gobble up all the related media (which I probably will regardless).

They should have gotten Joss Whedon on board for some of the writing. He'd have sorted their shit out.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Are you serious?
GreyWizzard wrote:Luke was. He was a whiney little shit who needed a bunch of help. Look at how he is regarded now.

He was a well developed character.
Let's ignore how he totally managed to blow up the death star... you know.. on his first run.
GreyWizzard wrote:She has no real depth, yeah she is a mystery but not one we will get to solve, they'll just tell us. Some more hints to who she was should have been given.
She's a strong, capable character that is resilient and clearly patient/naive.
They didn't give us any more hints as to she is BECAUSE CLEARLY THAT IS GOING TO BE A CHUNK OF THE NEXT MOVIE. Were you saying this at the end of ESB when Yoda hints "There is another?".. I mean christ they're being pretty fucking consistent when you consider all things.
GreyWizzard wrote:I feel I know the villain Kylo better than I know Rey.
Of course you do.. we had his ENTIRE backstory handed to us during the film. HIS PARENTS WERE IN THE FILM. So of course you know him better.
GreyWizzard wrote:I have a better idea of Finn, he is a guy who made a decision. He could see the injustices and wanted to do something more. Sure at first he was just fleeing, but the more he understood the mire he wanted to help.
So hang on... Finn can flee the first order based on a decision.. a pretty bland decision (Yup - made it.. now I shoot all my comrades in the hangar! Weeee!!!).. But Rey on the otherhand.. was actually very reluctant to leave Jakku.. then wanted to return because of a hope that her family was coming back... yet as the movie progressed she too got more involved in the fight.. but that doesn't seem enough for you? Right. Sure.
GreyWizzard wrote:Rey just flipped and jumped and lucked her way through everything... meh
She didn't just flip.. She made it pretty clear she wanted to go home but her moral sense of right kept her just within the fray and with that.. always within story progressing moments.
She's obviously Jedi trained.. so it stands to reason she would have more "luck" to get through situations..
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

unfnknblvbl wrote:See, the thing is, she is bland. By the very fact that she's excellent at everything she does (she can fly the Millennium Falcon at expert level almost straight away, ffs!), she's already been portrayed as being bland. I honestly think that Rey was one area where the film could have used a lot more apeing from the original; Luke got himself into shit that he couldn't instantly get himself out of all the time.
I wouldn't say it was expert level she flew the Falcon.. you forget her very shoddy take off.. and the whole idea is that she is able adapt to her situations quickly... I thought that is what Jedis do?
Luke lived with his Uncle and Aunt.. and effectively had things fed to him.. he was pretty useless.. he had no evolved resilience or independence. She was already used to doing things herself. Being bland? Well she's been working effectively as a slave for the last 10+years and slaves aren't exactly known for being bright and filled with interest.

As for getting herself into shit? Ahh she got herself captured by Kylo Ren. She seemed very ineffectual against him during that confrontation. I think had she just taken the light saber with Maz said she should take it.. then I'd have been a little "yeah this is a bit too on rails".
unfnknblvbl wrote:It's like in The Simpsons when they introduced Poochy - "can you Rastify him by say, 10%?" - they just went "can we make her appear 10% more badass?". Yes, she's badass. No arguments there. But she's also boring at the same time. Again, going back to the original film, Luke's mystery wasn't core to the plot. It wasn't core to making you go see the next film. In this, Rey is mysterious for the sake of being mysterious to make you gobble up all the related media (which I probably will regardless).
Given what had come before it.. you're almost blaming Rey/the movie for not being more like the original.. which interestingly enough.. a lot of criticism is being directed toward the film for being just that.. TOO much like A New Hope. Luke's mystery wasn't core to the plot because they simply made it that way... they had VERY minor hints to it... But seriously - her origins were of interest but they weren't the complete focus of the movie until towards the end. She's a different character.. and they haven't told us who she is... yet. I'm glad they've kept it mysterious because it's thought provoking and interesting. If she ends up being Luke's daughter... then I'd be a bit "well that's a bit fucking bland".
unfnknblvbl wrote:They should have gotten Joss Whedon on board for some of the writing. He'd have sorted their shit out.
I was actually quite happy with the writing but I definitely think Whedon input would have been VERY interesting.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Cletus »

GreyWizzard wrote:Wait... I say that I find Rey to be a Mary Sue I'm suddenly parroting Max Landis? Thus was my own thought, that everything was too easy for her, and that she happened to be in incredible situations that just happened to allow her to interact with every past member onscreen. Looking around I discovered the term Mary Sue, read up on it and saw that it fits her character perfectly. Rey is the perfect representation of a Mary Sue with zero wiggle room. It's nuts.

But sure, Max Landis said it even though I wasn't reading anything of his on twitter about the film as I hadn't seen it yet and he was posting flatout spoilers.

So yeah, I'm just a parrot.

Thanks dude, glad to see you don't think I have an opinion of my own.
Well I wasn't actually saying that, rather I was pointing out he's pushing the same thing, which is odd if you didn't hear it from him or those defending him. I say it's odd because it seems to be the wrong interpretation of the term from both you and Landis. I looked it up. While Rey seems to have knowledge of the Force or has had previous Jedi training, she's not put forward as a satirical idea of someone who is awesome at everything and saves the day through her pure awesomeness. Although I can understand that people will have that perspective of her, I don't think she fits the description accurately. I guess it's a fine line. And hey, wasn't saying you don't have your own opinions...I certainly form my opinions from my own sense of things but I also draw from other perspectives a lot. I don't mind admitting to it. I think it can often broaden my perspective. Hence why I knew what Max Landis is saying. Because sometimes I like how he thinks. I just think he's attention seeking in this case. He's still a bit dirty that Joe Public didn't love the shit out of American Ultra.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GameHED »

Saw it again the second time.

My original opinion hasn't changed. Black guy with gunner skill got friendzoned after attempting to rescue the female hero which makes the feminist fans angry so they had to write Rey so she is VERY disapproving of needing his help because..patriarchy. To accept help from a man = weakness to these types. It's not rocket science why they do this guys. Han had to say "I know your a tough chick that is why I want you to have the blaster". (intead of her just accepting that its ALWAYS good to have it as backup when a situation gets hairy just due to common sense) We are constantly reminded she is so tough she doesn't even need decent weapons. lol They can't resist beating a dead horse.

Rey is jar jar binks in reverse. People probably in the back of their mind non-feminists WANT her to fail because she is overpowered with no gradual gaining of experience, skill, and wisdom. In the prequels we saw how weak anakin was compared to dookuu in episode 2 because his training wasn't complete and the older more experienced guy beats anakin. Although anakin is prophesised to be a bad ass, he isn't invincible. His knowledge grows from movie to movie and so does his power. By ep3 dookuu doesn't stand a chance because of how he developed so much over the last time they fought. The passage of time causing anakin to become tougher and tougher = realism!

Same thing in batman begins when Batman's teacher helps to make him good in fighting then by the end of the movie he surpasses his own teacher because he got better since the last time. But with Rey there is no sense of "why should I care about the character" if they are automatically written to never make mistakee or fail? It's a question of whether it is realistic. (within the confines of the fantasy's own laws where hard work = better results and discipline results in avoidance of mistakes. )

Kylo however WAS injured (the shot from Chewy's gun = handicap for Kylo in the light saber fights at the end of the movie) so I can see a little bit of an attempt there to put realism towards the end which gives her victory some believability. But apart that, I think it was bad to make her that powerful in such short space of time.

I'm sorry it would be like if Sephiroth was the character you play as at the start of final fantasy 7 so you never have to work hard to earn victory. The bad guy should be overpowered not the hero. The hero overcomes challenge through hardship and perseverence. Not getting easy wins and being lazy which is how it came off in this movie.

When the hero being weaker beats the bad guy who is stronger, it has the effect of making him seem all the more awesome because he is the underdog. It's the same reason we root for conan to beat those giant guys in conan the barbarian because the giant guys are e even tougher than him, (and there is two) so he must use strategy, and know his limits to overcome the challenge not just his might, and the hope everything he faces is less strong than him.

This is the way you make us care for the hero. He/she isn't invincible. He/she can easily be killed. But they are brave enough to still take the tough challenge, and working harder than the bad guy is how they were able to break limits and grow/change. You get tougher by facing tougher people. If the bad guy is percieved by audience as weakling, then the effect of beating him/her is that you feel more sorry for the bad guy losing than happy for the hero winning because it simply isn't interesting. There is no story to tell.

When we see Darth Maul in Episode 1 fight at the end we clearly see the guy is skilled enough to require two jedi to take the guy on because he is THAT good. He beats one, and almost beats the other, and it's interesting to watch because the bad guy isn't considered weak in how he is presented. (he killed the teacher of the guy who beat him. The teacher is supposed to be BETTER than the student, but the student as the underdog overcomes his limits by growing.)
Maul uses two lightsabers so you immediately think he must be worth two normal skilled guys. However the hero (obi-wan) doesn't underestimate the bad guy and by focusing he overcomes the tough challenge. (hard work = getting better. You don't beat maul, simply by hoping he is weak or someone shot his chest to make the fight easy)

That's the difference between older star wars and the new one. Old ones make the bad guy overpowered and better. (this gives the hero something important to work towards and a reason to try harder than the bad guy and take the threat seriously) It's important because we can't like cheap wins in the same way we can hard-fought ones. If you don't fear for the hero's life and the possibility he/she is going to die, you have no story.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

I agree with a lot of GH here. If there is no growth of the hero why should we root for them?
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

Great article here about the character Rey and the moofie http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... on-problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I want to point out that I like these characters and I want to follow their adventures but at the moment the bulk of them are under cooked and feel a bit superfluous.

Why does Rey need Poe or Finn when she is better than everyone else?
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by t0mby »

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/30/st ... ease-dates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

5 more movies by 2020. Rogue One, Ep VIII, Boba Fett, Ep IX and Han Solo.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Reka »

I can't be the first to draw this parallel, but I think I'm going to start referring to Poe as Lenny and Finn as Carl.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

GreyWizzard wrote:I agree with a lot of GH here. If there is no growth of the hero why should we root for them?
If this was the second movie of the new trilogy.. I would be okay with this statement.. but this is after the first movie regarding a character shrouded in mystery.

Chill the fuck out already.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

As a side note (my lovely partner just mentioned) people are so annoyed that Rey developed her powers far too quickly.. umm let's consider the escape from Hoth. Han and Leia escape on the Falcon.. maybe spend a day or 2 in the asteroid.. and then maybe a few days at Bespin (let's ignore she drops the L bomb after a few days of close quarters and how silly it is when you truly think about it) and yet Luke is able to effectively COMPLETE his training with Yoda in the same time?
Don't be so blinded by the originals.. We love them and part of that love is fueled by nostalgia.. and I am COMPLETELY okay with this..
I have seen Force Awakens twice now.. loved it more the second time. It's star wars.. Lucas is just pissed about it being better than anything he's done.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Vince »

GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:As a side note (my lovely partner just mentioned) people are so annoyed that Rey developed her powers far too quickly.. umm let's consider the escape from Hoth. Han and Leia escape on the Falcon.. maybe spend a day or 2 in the asteroid.. and then maybe a few days at Bespin (let's ignore she drops the L bomb after a few days of close quarters and how silly it is when you truly think about it) and yet Luke is able to effectively COMPLETE his training with Yoda in the same time?
Don't be so blinded by the originals.. We love them and part of that love is fueled by nostalgia.. and I am COMPLETELY okay with this..
I have seen Force Awakens twice now.. loved it more the second time. It's star wars.. Lucas is just pissed about it being better than anything he's done.
Better than anything Lucas has done? Fucking hell I know people somehow dislike Lucas but saying this is better than Raiders or A New Hope or Empire or Temple Of Doom or even fucking Willow is fucking insane! Trying to turn on the OT and the man who created them to prop up this very flawed and fairly ok film is beyond my comprehension...!
And Luke had fucking training- Rey didn't. Or at least we don't know if she did. And until such time as we find out why she was able to know how to use the force and fly the millennium falcon as good as Han Solo and fight Kylo like a fucking Jedi, this movie failed by making her over powered in EVERY FUCKING THING she does without explaining a god damned thing! We don't, and shouldn't need a sequel to explain these thing. That is lazy, lazy film making and poor scriptwriting. To hear the excuse that this is a trilogy and it'll get explained is not good enough. I loved Rey and Finn as characters, but they were poorly developed and written in this film.
I'm not telling anyone to not like this film. It's enjoyable but TO ME it's extremely lazy film making that breaks no new ground and just treads over old territory. If you like that, fine. But if this didn't have the Star Wars name it'd be trashed by all and sundry.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Vince wrote:
Better than anything Lucas has done? Fucking hell I know people somehow dislike Lucas but saying this is better than Raiders or A New Hope or Empire or Temple Of Doom or even fucking Willow is fucking insane! Trying to turn on the OT and the man who created them to prop up this very flawed and fairly ok film is beyond my comprehension...!
My apologies.. I should have clarified - from a Star Wars perspective. As for a New Hope? Hmmm I think I did like it more.. as for Empire? Irvin Kershner directed it. Doesn't count. ;)
Vince wrote: And Luke had fucking training- Rey didn't. Or at least we don't know if she did. And until such time as we find out why she was able to know how to use the force and fly the millennium falcon as good as Han Solo and fight Kylo like a fucking Jedi, this movie failed by making her over powered in EVERY FUCKING THING she does without explaining a god damned thing!
What training did Luke have that was actually under proper instruction from a Jedi - other than a trip to Alderaan with Obi-wan Kenobi? That's all he had in the first movie and like I said in the previous post... the amount of time he spent with Yoda training in Empire? possibly a week? Yet actual Jedi's from the prequel spend their childhood and teenage years training. Lucas completely messed with the whole process of how long it takes for a Jedi to be properly instructed.
It really seems to be pointing towards Rey being a youngling.. as to how long she was actually a youngling? Unknown and obviously something we will find out in the next movie - which I think is completely acceptable.
As for flying a ship? If she can fix one, it's HIGHLY likely she has flown in one and she has had years of being in an environment where access is plausible. How about that Anakin jumping in a ship and blowing up a Trade Federation ship? Is that acceptable? How about Luke just jumping in an X-Wing.. do we even know if he'd actually flown an X-Wing in those situations? (possible so please let me know otherwise!)
Sometimes we need to be open to the concept of letting things happen without needing everything explained to us.
Vince wrote:We don't, and shouldn't need a sequel to explain these thing. That is lazy, lazy film making and poor scriptwriting. To hear the excuse that this is a trilogy and it'll get explained is not good enough. I loved Rey and Finn as characters, but they were poorly developed and written in this film.
I'm pretty certain that they will explain why she is so good at everything.. and likely it will be a integral part.. of the next movie.. so why the fuck would they explain something that will be a big part of the next installment? Not knowing how she is so powerful possibly could be frustrating for some.. but I'm happy to speculate and wonder.

As for Rey and Finn? Exactly what sort of development would have been acceptable to you for their characters?
Vince wrote:I'm not telling anyone to not like this film. It's enjoyable but TO ME it's extremely lazy film making that breaks no new ground and just treads over old territory. If you like that, fine. But if this didn't have the Star Wars name it'd be trashed by all and sundry.
I am the first to concede that you cannot deny that The Force Awakens has a lot that looks rehashed from A New Hope. But there is a lot that it does differently too and yeah.. giant planet destroying base and mini trench run aside... I'm very cool as to what it set up for the next movie.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GreyWizzard »

You should add American Graffiti in there. Beautiful film.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by Vince »

I'm not going to go through each bullet point GF and counter everything you've written. I'll say this much- Luke didn't get enough training during Empire, hence him getting his ass whipped against Darth Vader and losing a hand because of it. Yet he still had training of some kind. What you fail to grasp is that we all presume Rey was a youngling and has had some training cause everything she does seems improbable. Yet that should've been told to us. We aren't fucking watching a tv show like Lost where we need to wait week by week until they reveal all. This is a motion picture. It needs to stand on its own. This film doesn't.
In terms of character development, if you think Rey is well developed then I'd like to hear how. She goes from being kick ass at the beginning to being kick ass at the end. She learns nothing about herself (cause if she did then we'd know so there'd be no speculation on her super powers) and the only remotely interesting thing that goes nowhere is her missing parents.
Finn is a total doofus in this. Can't really do anything at all that well. Over reacts to everything he does. Starts off not wanting to be a storm trooper seeing his friends die then kills his friends to escape! He has no arc whatsoever and is a very one dimensional character. And it's sad cause they're played so well by both actors and I really want to love them. I can't wait to see how they develop in later films but it shouldn't be like that. This should be the film we see them develop instead of just being cardboard cutouts and over powered human beings.
Like I said though, you loved the film and all the power to you. I don't hate it but just wish that it wasn't so willing to pander to our love for the OT. It should've been a totally new concept instead of a retread of the originals. Say what you want about the prequels but George Lucas tried new things in them.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

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http://www.inquisitr.com/2649390/star-w ... floor-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has this been posted yet? I am intrigued.
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Re: The Force Awakens thread - Better than the prequels!

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Vince wrote:I'm not going to go through each bullet point GF and counter everything you've written. I'll say this much- Luke didn't get enough training during Empire, hence him getting his ass whipped against Darth Vader and losing a hand because of it. Yet he still had training of some kind. What you fail to grasp is that we all presume Rey was a youngling and has had some training cause everything she does seems improbable. Yet that should've been told to us. We aren't fucking watching a tv show like Lost where we need to wait week by week until they reveal all. This is a motion picture. It needs to stand on its own. This film doesn't.
Training of SOME kind. A weeks worth. Yeah.. that's pretty piss poor when you really get into the nitty gritty of it. Also.. did Yoda give Luke the Jedi handbook as he left during ESB so therefore between then and RotJ he had time to study? Or did Obi-Wan give him training in spirit form? I mean if there were no Jedi left.. how was he learning? It would be considered a plot hole but I can actually fill in the blanks to make it work.. just like I can fill in the blanks to make this movie work too.

You want this movie to stand on it's own and yet I actually believe this does. You want answers spoonfed to you yet you aren't patient enough to consider that all will be revealed in time. It's like wanting a murder mystery novel to tell you who the killer is so that as the story unfolds you can know everything as it happens.

Rey's origins are meant to be a mystery. Just like at the end of ESB when Yoda says there is another.. we are all meant to then speculate as to who it is. To keep us interested yet it seems it's pissed you off more than anything

Vince wrote:In terms of character development, if you think Rey is well developed then I'd like to hear how. She goes from being kick ass at the beginning to being kick ass at the end. She learns nothing about herself (cause if she did then we'd know so there'd be no speculation on her super powers) and the only remotely interesting thing that goes nowhere is her missing parents.
Rey went from being an isolated, very independent scavenger who held onto the idea that her family were coming back for her. She was reluctant at first to even help BB8 (note how she went to grab all the portions and then her decision to do the right thing overrode her own need to survive comfortably)... When she realised that the Force, Han Solo, Luke Skywalker aren't myths.. her attitude in my eyes seemed to change again. When they made it to Maz's planet.. she still turned down the job because she wanted to go back to Jakku because she was so desperate to be there in case her family showed up.

The moment with the lightsaber freaked her out and she wanted no part of it.. she ran. Yeah.. she was pretty good with a blaster.. but then again point and shoot coupled with having latent abilities for accuracy as a jedi.. I'm okay with this.. she got completely OWNED by Kylo Ren though. She wasn't kick arse in this scene at all which screws up your belief she was kick arse all the way through. If you actually watch the movie.. pretty much every time she is confronted with a new situation (flying the falcon, using the gun Han gave her, doing the persuasion trick) she doesn't actually get it right first go.. she quickly adapts though which is effectively how a Jedi works.

As for her learning about herself? She learned that she has a connection to the force. She accepted that he parents aren't coming back (which when you think about it would be a fairly upsetting realisation). She is force sensitive but she doesn't really know much more than what she heard from Maz and Han and her flashback thing with the light saber. She's accepted that she has to move on in order to find home and part of that path is going and seeing Luke as per the map.

As for not learning more about herself/powers? Tell me.. if I told you that you were adopted.. would that instantly unravel the mystery of your origins? No. It wouldn't. Give them time to tell a story and stop being so Veruca Salt about it all.
Vince wrote:Finn is a total doofus in this. Can't really do anything at all that well. Over reacts to everything he does. Starts off not wanting to be a storm trooper seeing his friends die then kills his friends to escape! He has no arc whatsoever and is a very one dimensional character. And it's sad cause they're played so well by both actors and I really want to love them. I can't wait to see how they develop in later films but it shouldn't be like that. This should be the film we see them develop instead of just being cardboard cutouts and over powered human beings.
If you were to compare Han Solo's arc in A New Hope to Finns.. you'd see that there isn't much depth to Solo. He's a scoundrel who consistently shows he wants money and that's it. He has a change of heart at the last minute. That's pretty much Han Solo in a nutshell from a New Hope.

Finn goes from being a stormtrooper put into battle for the first time and realises he can't do it. He freaks and has a fight or flight moment. He chooses flight and generally speaking I would say that the Jakku village scene really made him turn his back on all his fellow soldiers (in the novel I heard that he was a gifted but somewhat insubordinate loner who only had one friend.. who was the one that died in his arms). He was in flight when he used the Tie Fighter guns. and really... they all looked the same.. plus they were shooting at him first remember?

He spent the first part of the movie running and being afraid and he showed/voiced it. When he saw Rey get taken.. he realised he had something/someone to fight for.. He then choose to stay and rescue her. His response went from flight to fight. From someone who showed how fearful he was of the First Order.. I'd say that is pretty significant. He was human.. he questioned his actions as he did them. He grew in confidence as the movie went. If you compared Finn to the one who was shitting his pants as he crossed the hangar floor with Poe to the one who stood up to Kylo Ren. You can't not see the difference.

If you still feel that Finn had no arc.. well then.. I guess Han Solo didn't have one either.
Vince wrote:Like I said though, you loved the film and all the power to you. I don't hate it but just wish that it wasn't so willing to pander to our love for the OT. It should've been a totally new concept instead of a retread of the originals. Say what you want about the prequels but George Lucas tried new things in them.
He tried new things but he actually ended up doing the very thing he said from the OT he'd never do.. and that is be so reliant on CGI. The script from the Prequels is woeful and that isn't trying new things.. that's just being bad at scriptwriting. He tried stuff and it didn't pay off. Well it did financially but the movies are not considered to be anywhere near as good as the original trilogy and rightly so.

I do not envy JJ Abrams. At all. He was given possibly THE most high risk restart of a movie series. EVER. People were very disappointed with the prequels. People wanted what the original trilogy brought. He did actually do that.. but the question is.. how do you give people what they got 30 odd years ago but make it not that? Granted he could have tried to avoid the whole "plan/map in a droid" start... and a giant world destroying super weapon... I dunno.. it's hard to say what could have been an alternative that was deployable as a motion picture.

Thankfully we only have to wait till May 6 2017...
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