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The problem I have is that it’s hard to separate what I had come to know of the characters over 50+ books that I read from the EU covering 30+ years after ROTJ. Even though I knew they weren’t really canon when I was reading them it still created for me this idea of what became of those characters after the movies.

Funnily enough when I lost interest and stopped reading Star Wars books was when they started going in the opposite direction with established characters (never the OT trio they were protected by GL). The hero of a 20 book saga, saving the galaxy from an extragalactic enemy that devastated most of it, then became the villain in the next series of books having to be taken down by his sister. (Han & Leia’s kids)

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28 Dec 2017 10:08 am
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Mavy wrote:
The problem I have is that it’s hard to separate what I had come to know of the characters over 50+ books that I read from the EU covering 30+ years after ROTJ. Even though I knew they weren’t really canon when I was reading them it still created for me this idea of what became of those characters after the movies.

Funnily enough when I lost interest and stopped reading Star Wars books was when they started going in the opposite direction with established characters (never the OT trio they were protected by GL). The hero of a 20 book saga, saving the galaxy from an extragalactic enemy that devastated most of it, then became the villain in the next series of books having to be taken down by his sister. (Han & Leia’s kids)


My partner had ALL the books and this is something he mentioned too.. but he said that when TFA was announced and it wasn't to be canon.. he felt very displaced because of his memories of the books but then when he collected his thoughts and his feeling about where some of those stories ended up.. he was okay with it... Once he saw TFA.. he felt that he had truly let go. He still has fond memories of the books and the stories they told but he appreciates them in terms of their now what ifness and ultimately it was of a franchise he loves so it's not all for naught.


28 Dec 2017 10:23 am
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Well as it stands it seems that there will need to be a "prequel" trilogy set after RotJ and before TFA.. It seems like the only way Disney can solve the very boring mystery of Snoke, The First Order and why the Rebels never made it past being just rebels. Oh and it will allow them to make another trillion dollars on their investment, which will be handy for them too.


28 Dec 2017 02:17 pm
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I would say that it's unlikely they will do that since we've lost Carrie Fisher and she seems to have been quite involved in the Rebellion post RotJ and then leading up to TFA.. though if they went with only explaining the First Order they might get away with limited Leia requirement.. which could mean CGI.. I dunno.. I think that would leave a very poor EA like taste in people's mouth.

As for Snoke.. I am thinking that we might get more info about Snoke in Ep 9... origins and I reckon Phasma is still in the mix.


28 Dec 2017 02:30 pm
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Cletus wrote:
Well as it stands it seems that there will need to be a "prequel" trilogy set after RotJ and before TFA.. It seems like the only way Disney can solve the very boring mystery of Snoke, The First Order and why the Rebels never made it past being just rebels. Oh and it will allow them to make another trillion dollars on their investment, which will be handy for them too.


Apparently there are books that explains some of this shit which normies are instantly supposed to know using our psychic powers.



DLC wallet rape. You get the full story only if you read these books. I hate it when they do that. Fuck guidebooks man. Just tell us through flashbacks within the fucking movie.
George Lucas movies are the only story canon for me..All other stuff is historians on drugs who made stuff up to not get killed by the ones watching them. What you see in the movie made by the creator is the ttue actual events and books are the authors in universe giving thier version of what happened but it is up to readers or the audience to determine if it's propaganda or not. Luke might have been written about as powerful jedi but reality is he was average for his age compared to a prequel trilogy jedi who were taught at an early age.However authors would be pressured to exagerate his skill and force powers to make him seem better than the real person to sell more stories or to scare little kids to teach them to not dabble in the dark arts or otherwise Luke will come to kill you for misbehaving.
The true version is the film by the original creator. That's how I'm going to go from here on. The lore has'nt been broken. We just have other movies which are like tabloids to keep the public entertained and whether you believe they are actual true stories is up to you but noby should take it seriously. Yoda is not batshit insane and burns sacred religious texts as seen in TLJ film. That was merely rumour started by the Sith to make Jedi look bad.(true fans of star wars know crazy yoda is when he tested Luke's patience and that isn't his normal behavior)

OT Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no 'try'"
TLJ Yoda :"We all fail luke, go kill yourself if you hate being tough. I'll even burn the books for you so I can quickly get back to my chess game in the spirit world"

Doesn't the second Yoda sound more like what a Sith infiltrator would write for Yoda in history books to encourage jedi to be lazy and easier to kill in combat by lowering thier guard and telling them that it's ok to not suceed? LoL .Something to think about while on the crapper. New SW flicks are like that for me: the hero characters were written about by thier enemies to make them look bad to the public and the movie was designed to make the public laugh at them. Sith mission complete. Kids grow up not wanting to be strong and courageous but to take the easy path instead.

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28 Dec 2017 06:29 pm
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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Who the fuck is Snoke indeed. I don't know.. but then again.. did you know who Palpatine was in Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi? No. None of us did.

Being called THE EMPEROR tells you all you needed to know about him.


28 Dec 2017 11:39 pm
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stanard wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Who the fuck is Snoke indeed. I don't know.. but then again.. did you know who Palpatine was in Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi? No. None of us did.

Being called THE EMPEROR tells you all you needed to know about him.


Fair point. However when you consider how much back story we had filled in for him in the prequels.. it's also a fair point that there would be an element of projecting expectations onto him because of what we knew about Palpatine.. which again.. came from subsequent movies post Ep 5-6.

I don't think we've heard the end about Snoke.


29 Dec 2017 07:03 am
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One thing that I didn't like, and I felt this with the Force Awakens too and it's not something that's limited to Star Wars either, but it seems like you need to buy all the extra stuff to get the full story. All the books, comics, cartoons etc. That frustrates me. Even little things like Threepio mentioning his red arm in passing in Force Awakens, that's probably explained in a novel or something and I felt like the only thing missing from that scene was a pop up showing the book's cover with a 'buy now' link.

Another thing that annoys me with movies these days is splitting books into multiple movies. Lord of the Rings was perfect. Three books, three movies, and all the boring padding (Tom Bombadil etc) was cut. Then they went and shat things up with the last Harry Potter movie, the last Hunger Games movie, and the worst of the worst, The Hobbit.

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29 Dec 2017 10:19 am
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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
stanard wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Who the fuck is Snoke indeed. I don't know.. but then again.. did you know who Palpatine was in Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi? No. None of us did.

Being called THE EMPEROR tells you all you needed to know about him.


Fair point. However when you consider how much back story we had filled in for him in the prequels.. it's also a fair point that there would be an element of projecting expectations onto him because of what we knew about Palpatine.. which again.. came from subsequent movies post Ep 5-6.

I don't think we've heard the end about Snoke.

I agree, but that's the problem. These films aren't being made in isolation like the OT was, there's a rich backstory and built universe already so you can't expect watchers to accept a villain (with a nondescript and unconnected name) seemingly out of nowhere.

I felt JJ somewhat understood this, and while his mystery box style and nonstop callbacks frustrated many, at least he was seemingly setting Snoke up for a payoff.

But yes I also think we haven't seen (or heard) the last of him.


29 Dec 2017 10:26 am
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stanard wrote:


I agree, but that's the problem. These films aren't being made in isolation like the OT was, there's a rich backstory and built universe already so you can't expect watchers to accept a villain (with a nondescript and unconnected name) seemingly out of nowhere.

I felt JJ somewhat understood this, and while his mystery box style and nonstop callbacks frustrated many, at least he was seemingly setting Snoke up for a payoff.

But yes I also think we haven't seen (or heard) the last of him.


The thing is... and again.. this was my point.. we are looking at the Original Trilogy as exactly that.. A Trilogy. It was complete as far as we were concerned back then. This is a new trilogy that is only two thirds complete and currently under more scrutiny in terms of expectations and also quantity due to the modern times we live in thanks to the internet. Not only that.. reports are now showing that there are bots that are adding poor reviews to review sites like Rotten Tomatoes and there is a campaign out there to smear the movie by swaying perceived opinion of the movie. And it's been working.

We are a society that demands too much and has no patience. I think people have been too quick in judging this one because 1. they didn't get the pay offs they expected/theorised and 2. The story is not yet complete. You shouldn't compare an unfinished trilogy to a completed one from 30 years ago.


29 Dec 2017 02:25 pm
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Especially when the stupid parts of the old movies (still amongst my favourite of all time) are glossed over or ignored. Like Luke being able to keep his last name AND was raised on the home planet of his Dad by his aunt and uncle :lol:

But yes, lets rage out over Rey's parents being nobodies instead of another Skywalker and Snoke still being a mystery 2/3rds in and Phasma going out like a chump (just like Boba Fett, who everyone loves).

I reckon if we were all the same age we are now when the OT came out, and with the Internet the way it is now, we'd be tearing strips off them.

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29 Dec 2017 04:09 pm
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Saw it today, I'm not a huge star wars nerd or fan so I'm not outraged or anything but the wife and I liked it but as Star Wars it made no sense.

As I was watching it I felt like Disney was probably sad they couldn't find a way to put a character in a hijab in though as I think they squeezed in every possible race ethnicity and gender neutralised every position they could to the point it was distracting. It seemed Rose was cast as a major character just so they could have asian woman be a love interest with a black male lead so they could have a black + asian kiss because it's the only reason I can gather for her character.

I didn't understand (this follows from TFA) was how after the baffling events that lead to The New Order seemingly building a new death star without anyone in the Galaxy knowing or stopping this shit they all just fought to stop what 25 years earlier this movie skips to now The New Order after losing their giant planet are now in control of the entire Galaxy again and we are back to where we were when we first met Luke all those years ago and no one in the Galaxy put a stop to it happening all over again, just makes no sense.

The whole women in all leadership position of the Rebels and basically stupid male can only blow shit up was Disney's new SJW shit at it's best and I'm whinging because it actually took me out of the movie with how just completely ridiculous it was when Laura Dern (cant remmeber her character name) came on the scene and was just dimissive, that just wasn't star wars or the Rebels either.

The move is sorely lacking an actual villain with a purpose as Snoke got smoked (was the emperor yeah?) and Kylo is just like neither here nor there, there's no goal except Galaxy domination but then we are told it's 99% dominated already so it's not like he needs to fight that fight.

Those fucking kids, don't put kids in movies who can't act as they always fucking ruin it. Many a Christmas movie has been ruined by trying to use kids as elfs etc (Christmas movies being my fav category I am loathe to see this in many movies)

Her lack of training, he was going to train her and ends up giving her like 5 mins of half assed lessons, nek minute she's off doing loads of shit.

Anyway I honestly couldn't tell you as basically a neutral where this goes from here, you can't wrap this story up in one more movie from where it is without some serious fast forwarding or skipping of plot holes.

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29 Dec 2017 09:38 pm
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Froggy wrote:
Saw it today, I'm not a huge star wars nerd or fan so I'm not outraged or anything but the wife and I liked it but as Star Wars it made no sense.


Star Wars often doesn't make sense... so it sounds like it was on the money.. with a few extra layers thrown in for good measure.

Froggy wrote:
As I was watching it I felt like Disney was probably sad they couldn't find a way to put a character in a hijab in though as I think they squeezed in every possible race ethnicity and gender neutralised every position they could to the point it was distracting. It seemed Rose was cast as a major character just so they could have asian woman be a love interest with a black male lead so they could have a black + asian kiss because it's the only reason I can gather for her character.


Considering a hijab is from our planet and that religion hasn't even been created yet.. I doubt they are sad. Given that Star Wars is probably one of THE most historically white washed and male dominated films in history.. I think Disney is being a bit more realistic in terms of of the fact that the Resistance WOULD in fact have women in it.... It's a change for the villains to have women among their ranks when you consider the Empire was strictly men only based on what we saw in the original trilogy. All the clones from the prequels would be too old now.. and who is to say they even made more clones when the original trilogy was set? Feet on the ground would be important regardless of their gender I imagine.

As for having a diverse range of humans.. we've had a diverse range of aliens.. and let's be nice about this - there is nothing wrong with having black or asian people in a movie.. I see it as a great way to make people from those ethnic groups feel included and for them to be visible. It can't ALWAYS be white men.

Froggy wrote:
I didn't understand (this follows from TFA) was how after the baffling events that lead to The New Order seemingly building a new death star without anyone in the Galaxy knowing or stopping this shit they all just fought to stop what 25 years earlier this movie skips to now The New Order after losing their giant planet are now in control of the entire Galaxy again and we are back to where we were when we first met Luke all those years ago and no one in the Galaxy put a stop to it happening all over again, just makes no sense.


It's Star Wars.... Logic doesn't always apply.. which is all the more reason why it is so baffling as to why so many man-children are having their sooky-lalas over it.

In terms of the pattern or cycle of things.. you are right.. but then also Space is pretty big... BUT you would think that resources have to come from somewhere and that little birds would sing and ultimately the resistance would find out.. but again.. Star Wars... and again - this is why you can't single this movie out for this kinda issue since it's been in the franchise since the very beginning.

Froggy wrote:
The whole women in all leadership position of the Rebels and basically stupid male can only blow shit up was Disney's new SJW shit at it's best and I'm whinging because it actually took me out of the movie with how just completely ridiculous it was when Laura Dern (cant remmeber her character name) came on the scene and was just dimissive, that just wasn't star wars or the Rebels either.


Holdo was a cool character.

When I worked at Energex 10yrs ago.. we had deregulation of the retail market here in QLD. There were 4 main transition teams. 3 were lead by men. 1 was lead by a woman. 3 teams failed in their overall requirements. 1 succeeded. It was the woman's team that succeeded. Why? Because the 3 men were fucking impulsive, arrogant idiots. They were shortly redeployed and 2 women and 1 man were parachuted in to clean up the mess. They did it. Moral of the story - there are and will be situations that women kick arse and better suited to the job at hand.. be it by convenience, aptitude, lack or resources, talent.. the reasons are numerous as they are varied.

You're okay to accept the probability that 2 droids (one created by Anakin Skywalker) would end up with Luke Skywalker way back in the original trilogy and yet you can't accept that due to various changes in rank and numerous battles it could eventuate in there being some capable female leaders in charge? I just feel like people are being too strict about this and completely forgetting about previous situations of convenience.

Given the decades of women being relegated to having to be rescued and their only true strength and talent is that they can somehow run in 6 inch heels (Thanks Jurassic World)... is it that much of a problem to show that women can in fact be great, resourceful and sensible leaders? It's not completely out of the question.. I mean.. Mon Mothma was in the original Star Wars trilogy.. so having women in positions of power isn't completely new. Also.. given the dwindled number of resistance.. it actually makes sense.

Regarding Holdo being dismissive - Let's consider what has in fact just happened. They were just tracked through hyperspace. This is clearly alarming and unheard of. Three possible reasons - new tech, the ship has been bugged or a spy. As a leader - you'd be considering all 3 but since new tech is seemingly so shocking to them.. you'd be more inclined to consider the latter possibilities.. So. Why would a leader in a now very pressing time - be required or even consider telling the plan to a freshly demoted pilot to directly disobeyed an order and thus destroyed numerous ships/bombers and their pilots. The guy has shown that he is somewhat reckless, hot headed and defies orders. She made a choice to not tell him since he has shown to be erratic and unpredictable.. Could he go and do something that could tip off a spy.. possibly.. as it happens.. his own plan ends up causing a spy/neutral agent to be in the mix anyway.

You are completely right though - it wasn't Star Wars. It was something much better in terms of some sensible thinking. It didn't pan out though since Poe AGAIN decided to defy orders and do something else. Which.. well.. IS Star Wars :D

Froggy wrote:
The move is sorely lacking an actual villain with a purpose as Snoke got smoked (was the emperor yeah?) and Kylo is just like neither here nor there, there's no goal except Galaxy domination but then we are told it's 99% dominated already so it's not like he needs to fight that fight.


I do tend to agree with you on this.. but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in terms of acknowledging my nostalgia for the original trilogy as a whole may be clouding how I see this unfinished story and where it is headed.
With this said.. it's been a while since we've seen a BIG villain in movies.. I felt Ego in Guardians of the Galaxy wasn't that great.. neither was the first Guardians movie villain.. neither is Loki. But Thanos.. is lurking in those movies and I am assuming he will bring the bad.

Or.. is it that we are older now and simply don't get scared or feel the tension that villain brings now?

Froggy wrote:
Those fucking kids, don't put kids in movies who can't act as they always fucking ruin it. Many a Christmas movie has been ruined by trying to use kids as elfs etc (Christmas movies being my fav category I am loathe to see this in many movies)


Which kids? You mean the ones on the casino planet? I didn't really have an issue with them.. they were there... I got the message or reasoning why they were in there...

Froggy wrote:
Her lack of training, he was going to train her and ends up giving her like 5 mins of half assed lessons, nek minute she's off doing loads of shit.

Anyway I honestly couldn't tell you as basically a neutral where this goes from here, you can't wrap this story up in one more movie from where it is without some serious fast forwarding or skipping of plot holes.


Luke had a few hours of training with Yoda and ended up being able to float rocks and almost lift an X-wing out of the water. He even went into the cave and had his visions. I always got the impression that Luke was very rough around the edges in terms of his aptitude for actually using the force. He also seemingly acquired plenty of new skills between Empire and Return.. who taught him these things? Why isn't that a plot hole? Well for me.. I simply plugged those holes in that Luke may have gone back to Yoda between movies.. or that Obi-Wan had been giving him guidance as a force ghost.

In terms of Rey.. yes.. she has learned fast.. though is it too hard to consider she is just incredibly capable? She's has already shown she is smart in terms of mechanics and quick thinking for fixing stuff. Convenient Mary Sue stuff.. yeah yeah.. but this is Star Wars. :D She already seems pretty capable in a fight from her time on Jakku.. though as to her reasoning for being able to fight? It seemed pretty rough there so many she just trained herself.. so again.. she has an aptitude for it.

In terms of wrapping it up... don't forget.. we seemingly had some fast forward action happen between Empire and Return. I agree though.. as to how they manage to tie it up into a bow.. I don't know where or how it will go BUT the difference with me is that I'm keen to see how they do it.. as opposed to so many of the neck beards out there who have said it's the worst movie ever and blah blah blah.

It's Star Wars. It's always had plot holes and problems.. fucking run with it. It's a light hearted sci-fi movie.. not a dick. Don't take it so hard.


30 Dec 2017 11:55 am
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Remember I'm no huge SW nerd so I can handle things not being cannon but Jesus this film went right off those rails. I didn't handle Michael Bay shitting on everything Transformers so I can only imagine if I loved Star Wars the absolute melt I'd have been having during this.

Froggy wrote:
Saw it today, I'm not a huge star wars nerd or fan so I'm not outraged or anything but the wife and I liked it but as Star Wars it made no sense.


General Cyberfunk wrote:
As for having a diverse range of humans.. we've had a diverse range of aliens.. and let's be nice about this - there is nothing wrong with having black or asian people in a movie.. I see it as a great way to make people from those ethnic groups feel included and for them to be visible. It can't ALWAYS be white men.


The problem here is that they put her in as a deliberately short fat asian to check a box for diversity and then wrote in the most pointless story and then a completely out of the blue with no build up I love you Finn moment\kiss for two characters with no connection just for the reason to have them kiss. It actually was detrimental to the film but they had to check the box coz that seems to be a lot of Hollywood's concern for what makes a good film these days. There would have been no one leaving the cinema watching this going wow I hope Finn and Rose get together, everyone will be like I am meant to like Finn but he is a completely wooden character and Rose is on Jar Jar level of don't care it was a waste of screen time that entire side plot.

General Cyberfunk wrote:
It's Star Wars.... Logic doesn't always apply.. which is all the more reason why it is so baffling as to why so many man-children are having their sooky-lalas over it.

In terms of the pattern or cycle of things.. you are right.. but then also Space is pretty big... BUT you would think that resources have to come from somewhere and that little birds would sing and ultimately the resistance would find out.. but again.. Star Wars... and again - this is why you can't single this movie out for this kinda issue since it's been in the franchise since the very beginning.


Yeah I agree with you here just I think more than anything I find it a bit lazy, you have an entire Galaxy you could make this film about something a little different to the first 6 but no.

General Cyberfunk wrote:

Holdo was a cool character.

When I worked at Energex 10yrs ago.. we had deregulation of the retail market here in QLD. There were 4 main transition teams. 3 were lead by men. 1 was lead by a woman. 3 teams failed in their overall requirements. 1 succeeded. It was the woman's team that succeeded. Why? Because the 3 men were fucking impulsive, arrogant idiots. They were shortly redeployed and 2 women and 1 man were parachuted in to clean up the mess. They did it. Moral of the story - there are and will be situations that women kick arse and better suited to the job at hand.. be it by convenience, aptitude, lack or resources, talent.. the reasons are numerous as they are varied.


She was complete shite, that fucking speech at the start was cringe. My point was the rebels aren't lead with someone just acting like that, to my memory it's always been a pretty open discussion area with everyone. We had women in every leadership position in the Rebels coz Disney,

Shock horror a woman ran a team and it was successful, so what? So a bunch of dudes were duds, if I take your example to Star Wars it doesn't work in fact it says the opposite. The Rebels are lead by an exclusively woman tiered leadership and have failed so miserably they a reduced to a low speed chase with a handful of people left and the one dude they demote just happened to save a bunch of their asses at the start by taking out 10 guns on his own. When he pipes up at the new woman who has dialog written in just so seemingly show a man can be downtalked as it was nonsensical behaviour by a rebel and at this point where there's like 100 people left was just stupid.

General Cyberfunk wrote:
You're okay to accept the probability that 2 droids (one created by Anakin Skywalker) would end up with Luke Skywalker way back in the original trilogy and yet you can't accept that due to various changes in rank and numerous battles it could eventuate in there being some capable female leaders in charge? I just feel like people are being too strict about this and completely forgetting about previous situations of convenience.

Given the decades of women being relegated to having to be rescued and their only true strength and talent is that they can somehow run in 6 inch heels (Thanks Jurassic World)... is it that much of a problem to show that women can in fact be great, resourceful and sensible leaders? It's not completely out of the question.. I mean.. Mon Mothma was in the original Star Wars trilogy.. so having women in positions of power isn't completely new. Also.. given the dwindled number of resistance.. it actually makes sense.


I have no idea of the droids history in star wars didnt pay close attention to eps 1 - 2 and only watched bits of 3. My point above, hasn't Lea always been in charge or one of the leaders of the Rebels the entirety of star wars? I never argued at all that it wouldn't eventuate that there'd be some it's that the are only female leaders which is written and filmed to keep pointing it out, it's the kind of shit that makes hollywood tickets tumble.

General Cyberfunk wrote:
Regarding Holdo being dismissive - Let's consider what has in fact just happened. They were just tracked through hyperspace. This is clearly alarming and unheard of. Three possible reasons - new tech, the ship has been bugged or a spy. As a leader - you'd be considering all 3 but since new tech is seemingly so shocking to them.. you'd be more inclined to consider the latter possibilities.. So. Why would a leader in a now very pressing time - be required or even consider telling the plan to a freshly demoted pilot to directly disobeyed an order and thus destroyed numerous ships/bombers and their pilots. The guy has shown that he is somewhat reckless, hot headed and defies orders. She made a choice to not tell him since he has shown to be erratic and unpredictable.. Could he go and do something that could tip off a spy.. possibly.. as it happens.. his own plan ends up causing a spy/neutral agent to be in the mix anyway.

You are completely right though - it wasn't Star Wars. It was something much better in terms of some sensible thinking. It didn't pan out though since Poe AGAIN decided to defy orders and do something else. Which.. well.. IS Star Wars :D



Well no this fails that logic when she was supposedly happy to have every other ship except her's run out of fuel (fuels a thing in star wars?) and everyone on those die. So the guy who took down a dreadnaught, which would have taken them all out the next jump if he hadn't, is not to be trusted for losing about 9 ships in the process and about 18 people. All as her supposedly great thinking plan was to let many times that die by running out of fuel in support ships and being blown up whilst telling no one why lol.

General Cyberfunk wrote:
I do tend to agree with you on this.. but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt in terms of acknowledging my nostalgia for the original trilogy as a whole may be clouding how I see this unfinished story and where it is headed.
With this said.. it's been a while since we've seen a BIG villain in movies.. I felt Ego in Guardians of the Galaxy wasn't that great.. neither was the first Guardians movie villain.. neither is Loki. But Thanos.. is lurking in those movies and I am assuming he will bring the bad.

Or.. is it that we are older now and simply don't get scared or feel the tension that villain brings now?


I agree the GOTG villain wasn't intimidating either but Darth Vader took 3 films to best after failing and losing an arm in the second. We got the main guy now we already know she can beat up as she did first go so is better with the force, the dude who was more powerful than both got iced pretty easily so I just.. just have zero carefactor about the big bad ass who is basically a teenage brat with no intimidating ways at all. It feels too late to build him up inbetween movies and then watch the next one and suddenly take him seriously.

General Cyberfunk wrote:
In terms of wrapping it up... don't forget.. we seemingly had some fast forward action happen between Empire and Return. I agree though.. as to how they manage to tie it up into a bow.. I don't know where or how it will go BUT the difference with me is that I'm keen to see how they do it.. as opposed to so many of the neck beards out there who have said it's the worst movie ever and blah blah blah.

It's Star Wars. It's always had plot holes and problems.. fucking run with it. It's a light hearted sci-fi movie.. not a dick. Don't take it so hard.


If they centre it majority on Rey and Kylo then it will more than likely be much better, Rey is great and a great performance again. If they had given more Kylo/Rey and Luke/Rey time and expanded that to slow it down a bit then it would have been much better I reckon. As I said, I liked it but I can understand why the nek beards are shitting bricks about it.

I made the mistake of googling how long luke was with Yoda for and fuck me star wars nerds are the worst, took one look at the first page of google results lol

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Ya'll forget Mon Mothma led the rebellion in the OT?

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30 Dec 2017 09:01 pm
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I saw it again and tried to focus on the parts people hated and came away liking it even more.

Diverse cast. If you think it's more realistic that Lando Calrissian was the only non-white person in the entire galaxy, then you're nuts. The Empire was always about human supremacism and were always portrayed as Space Nazis, so it makes sense the First Order is still rocking the coolest uniforms in the galaxy while speaking in British movie villain accents, but the rebels were always more diverse. That's the whole point. Adding more black people and Asians to all the aliens in the Resistance just makes sense and fixes a glaring mistake from the OT. But if it fits your own persecuted white boy narrative better to think otherwise, yeah go for it. Damn darkies, gays and women ruining movies for us all. SJW bullshit. Finn and Rose = Miscegenation!!! Every time I walk through the CBD I wish it looked like I was walking through a Leni Riefenstahl doco so THAT'S THE WAY MOVIES SHOULD BE, DAMN IT! ANYTHING ELSE IS DIVERSITY TICK BOX BULLSHIT AND UNREALISTIC!!!

I kinda wish that Finn and Poe hook up in Episode IX just to watch the real snowflakes melt :lol:

Finn and Rose's subplot. Yes, it was ultimately pointless in the sense that their mission failed and the Resistance got to their hidden base anyway. But that's the point. Poe disobeyed a direct order from his commanding officer, and was demoted. Why would Holdo divulge her plans to somebody proven to be so untrustworthy, and so low down in the chain of command? I can't think of a hierarchical organisation like the military allowing all and sundry to know their plans like you expect Holdo to. The generals and admirals come up with the plans, and the subordinates are expected to carry out the orders they receive. But because Poe can't see beyond the end of his nose, and expects to be the hero (as Leia said, the attack on the Dreadnaught only featured dead heroes, no leaders) he lets Finn and Rose (who is only involved because her sister died. Because of Poe) go off on their mission (which Threepio would have said had a minuscule chance of success if he'd known about it. It's about time he was right too, the number of one in a million things the good guys have pulled off in Star Wars is ridiculous) and ends up orchestrating a mutiny to allow them to continue their mission. No wonder Leia shot him when she woke up. And I'm glad the Codebreaker betrayed them too. Star Wars has too many loveable rogues, lets show these types of characters for who they really are. Only in it for themselves. Han and Lando should be outliers in this scenario, not the norm.

We saw Poe grow up by the end of the movie. He called off the suicide attack on the battering ram cannon and led the Resistance out of the caves. We saw Leia smile as he took charge like a real leader. You'll probably see your square-jawed fly boy in charge of the Resistance in Episode IX (almost-certainly now that Carrie Fisher is one with the Force). Put down the tiki torches :)

Space Leia. Still dumb

Holdo's lightspeed suicide attack. Yeah, I have no idea why this wasn't already a thing if it's as effective as it appears to be. But then again, the Empire built a second Death Star with the same weakness as the first, and then the First Order built Starkiller Base :) So they don't appear to be the sharpest tools in the shed, so in that sense it's consistent :lol:

Snoke. It's a mystery. Will it be revealed in Episode IX? Who knows. I hope so. We're only 2/3rds in.

Rey's parents. I don't know if Kylo Ren was lying (or the memories were false and planted by Snoke when he connected their minds) but again, more may be revealed in Episode IX. I like the idea that the 'chosen one' doesn't have to be a Skywalker, it can be anyone. It's a more positive message. Luke, Leia and Kylo Ren were like royalty, they were born into a powerful family. This trilogy seems to be democratising the Force (also fits into Luke's point during Rey's training. The idea that the Force is only for Jedi is bullshit). Makes sense if the goal of the Resistance is to rebuild the New Republic.

Grumpy Luke. He was so idealistic in the OT I can definitely imagine that his moment of weakness when he fired up his lightsaber while Ben Solo (his own nephew) was sleeping and the fallout from that split second decision would have broken him. I thought Mark Hamill did a great job. When he trimmed his hair and beard he also looked like Tyrion Lannister :lol: Yoda's comment that "failure is the greatest teacher" also ties nicely into Poe's journey in this movie.

So yes, there were plenty of issues, like all Star Wars movies. But I like the new direction it's taking, despite the missteps. I'm not sure where it would rank but it's far from the worst Star Wars movie.

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Ambrose Burnside wrote:
Ya'll forget Mon Mothma led the rebellion in the OT?


I didn't! :D

Froggy wrote:
The problem here is that they put her in as a deliberately short fat asian to check a box for diversity and then wrote in the most pointless story and then a completely out of the blue with no build up I love you Finn moment\kiss for two characters with no connection just for the reason to have them kiss. It actually was detrimental to the film but they had to check the box coz that seems to be a lot of Hollywood's concern for what makes a good film these days. There would have been no one leaving the cinema watching this going wow I hope Finn and Rose get together, everyone will be like I am meant to like Finn but he is a completely wooden character and Rose is on Jar Jar level of don't care it was a waste of screen time that entire side plot.


I kinda feel like you didn't really pay attention in this film.

1. Heaven forbid they include a character who isn't your typical hollywood looking person. In a galaxy far far far away I wasn't aware that short fat asians were such a problem. But having fat white men is completely fine. Actually that's a point in itself... people are more upset at having diversity than they are about how lacking and ridiculous the original trilogy was in terms OF diversity. I get it.. no point in being too angry about films from the 70's and 80's but is it that bad a thing to try and make something a bit more inclusive and I don't know - accurate?

It's disappointing and alas not unsurprising that people are more interested in her body shape and her race than her character. That opening scene when she was crying was so sad and it was done so well.

2. When she first meets Finn there is an element of hero worship.. and overall awe. This isn't surprising. Though since you didn't see this.. maybe the idea will be for you.

3. When my group left the cinema we were on Team Rose/Finn BUT we recognised this very ambiguous triangle sorta thing happening... though all of us were keen on it being a square as the Finn/Poe thing is still awesome and not 100% out. Though the Poe/Rey connection seems like it's most likely to happen now.

4. You are right.. Finn IS a wooden character. But I've actually been able to make peace with this since we simply don't know what his upbringing was like as a stolen child to be conditioned for Stormtrooper duties. On the flipside.. one could Han Solo was pretty one dimensional in terms of his story too.. Luckily for him.. he's had 30-40yrs of people building a love affair with him.. when by today's standards.. you'd be questioning if he's a predator (Leia/Han Asteroid scene).




Froggy wrote:
Yeah I agree with you here just I think more than anything I find it a bit lazy, you have an entire Galaxy you could make this film about something a little different to the first 6 but no.


That's a surprising quote as people were upset with TFA as it was too much like A New Hope.. and now this one in terms of Star Wars is quite different compared to the previous movies and most people are saying it ISN'T Star Wars.. I actually agree with you in that if you break the movie down to its bare bones.. It is somewhat similar to Empire.. but by saying that it's not different enough from previous movies is a bit like saying that a Aston Martin is a bit too much like a Hyundai Excel.. you know.. because of the spoiler :D

Froggy wrote:

She was complete shite, that fucking speech at the start was cringe. My point was the rebels aren't lead with someone just acting like that, to my memory it's always been a pretty open discussion area with everyone. We had women in every leadership position in the Rebels coz Disney,

Shock horror a woman ran a team and it was successful, so what? So a bunch of dudes were duds, if I take your example to Star Wars it doesn't work in fact it says the opposite. The Rebels are lead by an exclusively woman tiered leadership and have failed so miserably they a reduced to a low speed chase with a handful of people left and the one dude they demote just happened to save a bunch of their asses at the start by taking out 10 guns on his own. When he pipes up at the new woman who has dialog written in just so seemingly show a man can be downtalked as it was nonsensical behaviour by a rebel and at this point where there's like 100 people left was just stupid.


Your memory fails you.. Generally speaking.. Mon Mothma got up and said her thing in the original trilogy and it wasn't really discussed. It was a briefing. Not a forum. To be honest, I understand why you say it was cringe.. it was actually very american.. and that's the sort of shit that film makers do to appeal to their market. Like I said though.. women in every leadership position because as it turned out.. most of the leaders got killed in one go.. and there were men in that group of leaders.

My point about the team example was that it isn't unheard of nor should it be surprising that a woman can do that role.. and in the example of this movie - men don't always make the right or even sensible decisions... which is what we saw here.. and unsurprisingly - it's why so many men are pissed with the movie.. because it was some sort of agenda to make men look bad...

Your knowledge of Star Wars doesn't help your argument.. and again - it shows that you didn't really pay attention. Given that they have been fighting.. on the run etc etc.. we actually don't know what other events lead to the leadership structure and why it was made up of the people it was. They were lead by an exclusively female tired leadership because all the leaders.. were all unfortunately on a bridge that got blown up and only she survived. I can't find a clip of that moment.. but from the stills I found. The majority of the people on that bridge.. Ackbar included.. were male. Which backs up my belief that the chain of command was more about how the chips fell rather than this huge feminist push.

Poe had disobeyed a direct order. And it resulted in lots of people dying. Being demoted made sense. He was given another direct order and he disobeyed that too. We won't know if they could have survived on the run from a Dreadnought... That ship had big firepower but we don't know if the canons would have been effective in a chase. I would say unlikely. Holdo's response to him was curt and not ideal.. but then again.. I'd be a bit pissed and short with someone who just caused people to die because he decided to defy orders.

Froggy wrote:

I have no idea of the droids history in star wars didnt pay close attention to eps 1 - 2 and only watched bits of 3. My point above, hasn't Lea always been in charge or one of the leaders of the Rebels the entirety of star wars? I never argued at all that it wouldn't eventuate that there'd be some it's that the are only female leaders which is written and filmed to keep pointing it out, it's the kind of shit that makes hollywood tickets tumble.


So.. you're debating the finer details of Star Wars.. and you can't get the reference to C3PO and R2D2 landing on Tatooine... which is in Episode 4.. the very first Star Wars movie? Leia has not always been in charge. She's been among it but in terms of the movies.. but she was not a leader when you compare her to the likes of Mon Mothma.

Froggy wrote:
Well no this fails that logic when she was supposedly happy to have every other ship except her's run out of fuel (fuels a thing in star wars?) and everyone on those die. So the guy who took down a dreadnaught, which would have taken them all out the next jump if he hadn't, is not to be trusted for losing about 9 ships in the process and about 18 people. All as her supposedly great thinking plan was to let many times that die by running out of fuel in support ships and being blown up whilst telling no one why lol.


Again - you weren't paying attention. As the ships run out of fuel and float and fall behind.. you see the smaller ships flying ahead and into the larger ship. So she didn't leave everyone on those ships to die. I double checked that moment on my second viewing and as I saw the first time.. they covered that point. You just didn't see it. So your above point is completely void.

Froggy wrote:
I agree the GOTG villain wasn't intimidating either but Darth Vader took 3 films to best after failing and losing an arm in the second. We got the main guy now we already know she can beat up as she did first go so is better with the force, the dude who was more powerful than both got iced pretty easily so I just.. just have zero carefactor about the big bad ass who is basically a teenage brat with no intimidating ways at all. It feels too late to build him up inbetween movies and then watch the next one and suddenly take him seriously.


I see Kylo Ren being intimidating due to him being so erratic and prone to temper tantrums where he destroys stuff. As to what happens with him - I am excited by the prospect that I simply don't know.. Yes.. it's not your typical big bad.. and I am to a degree disappointed that we don't have that anymore.. but then again.. we didn't have it in the prequels other than we knew who Palpatine was.. but he wasn't scary.. but then again.. that could be me being an adult now overriding that.

Froggy wrote:
If they centre it majority on Rey and Kylo then it will more than likely be much better, Rey is great and a great performance again. If they had given more Kylo/Rey and Luke/Rey time and expanded that to slow it down a bit then it would have been much better I reckon. As I said, I liked it but I can understand why the nek beards are shitting bricks about it.

I made the mistake of googling how long luke was with Yoda for and fuck me star wars nerds are the worst, took one look at the first page of google results lol


I liked Rey too... a lot of people didn't and said she was wooden AF also. I think slowing it down would have taken away from the overall point that the rebels were in a race against time but I am also of the opinion that I am really enjoying this new generation of Star Wars so I am happy for any and all development but I know there are restrictions and a story to be told.

A bit more Luke/Rey would have been good since I thought there was a good dynamic.. I do find it hilarious the number of people saying that they got the Luke character wrong.. like they are some sort of expert on how people deal with guilt though.

As for the length of time Luke trained with Yoda? As far as I'm concerned.. it was a few days (by our standards) as there were a day/night cycles. But it wasn't weeks. Since they were all in the same clothes.. and none of their hair grew.

Apparently in a Star Wars Lego game it is said that it was a few weeks though.. I'm fairly relaxed about it.. mainly because Rey's development doesn't bother me.. and I suspect there will be more to it in Ep 9.


31 Dec 2017 11:02 am
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I think the guys defending TLJ don't understand why people are angry.

The true fans see star wars as being above science fiction genre and much more of a story about relgious groups fighting for justice. Between them are groups that fight for order IE the jedi council which is only interested in keeping its position of power not about doing what is right (the whole reason anakin was justified in turning against them in the prequel trilogy when Mace took the law into his own hands and decided to go judge dredd on the senator) ._. and ones that fight for money and riches ( the character of han solo who just works for money. Jabba the hut who has his own underground empire. Boba Fett who is willingly to hunt people for cash without caring which side wins. These would be the space rogues/thiefs/ninjas/assassin groups) and more chaotic. And lastly those who wish for absolute power no matter what they as individuals have to sacrifice and use and manipulate to obtain and keep it forever. (the pure evil characters we love to hate)

So in total you got rebels, empire, rogues, but the most important of all are the virtues of knights vs the greed of the power seeking space wizards and how good people can be turned to evil. This is the core of what star wars was about not the actual ships, the wars, and the powers. Yes Jedi and Sith have powers.And this makes them stand out from all the generic soldiers and droids which just obey orders on command without question. But it comes down to good guys vs evil guys and the problem with the new disney movies as I see it is the writers forgot that star wars is a space fantasy flick and not a pure science fiction movie about the actual wars themselves. The wars only serve as the backdrop between the 4 groups: rebel vs empire. rogues vs both. Religious guys vs all the above and against each other.

And the story climaxes when the jedi overcome temptation to become the evil they are fighting. In other words evil itself is REAL and exists. But itis inside the warriors in the form of not doing what is right, In Lord of the Rings it was the Man race that was evil for not throwing the One Ring away and instead keeping it thinking they could take the power and tame it and use it for their own selfish needs. The evles hated them for that and by the time of the hobbits saving the world, the elves forgave them for realising how dangerous it was and finally agreeing that destroying it was the best idea. So each story I guess has moral to teach kids like a fairy tale. In star wars it is the idea that no matter how cool the pwer you have, if you yourself go against what righteous values you claim to have, you let bad guys control you forever. (ie they can smear your name to the public and use the bad deed as justification to remove you from decision making and leadership position) In LOTR it was abusing the power of the ring to serve you instead of seperating from evil to stay pure. And the new movies lost that. The writers just see it as generic science fiction like star trek.

I have a problem with that because to me heroic characters define themselve by what they do and if people who do dangerous stuf in real life can't respect the characters in the movie they will lose interest because they are above them in the real world. If you want to create good characters they have to have something that we can look up to not downard from.
And that is the reason the neckbeards don't like the new ones. We don't want science fiction storis where technology is what wins war, but we want stories of heroes who overcome the seemingly impossible through spiritual awareness of themselves and their enemy limits to win on a higher level. That is they don't allow the other characters to change them to become the bad guy but grow by defeating them in the spiritual battle. (like in a game of chicken the guy who chickens out loses the game)
The SJW want heroes to be ordinary guys like you and me which goes against what makes the jedi/sith stand out and what makes them special. Take away the lore and you just have no reason to care what happens in fights. No danger. Why is it that chewie hitting kylo with a grenade tipped crossbow gun thing so effective but the blaster shot at the start of force awakens can be stopped? It's just random shit. When Han tried to shoot Darth Vader with his Blaster and then Vader blocks it with his hand, we could believe that was possible because a jedi can sense the intention of the guy who wants to kill him and block the shot with his hand the same way you grab a guy's arm in martial arts when they try to strike you by reading thier intention and then slam them to the floor. There is a mind game involved in trying to anticipate the opponent's move before he himself does it. But there is no scene in Star War OT where vader suddenly loses that ability to block a shot in the same way Kylo loses the ability to stop chewie hitting him with ranged weapon in the new movies. In fact one of the reasons technology isn't better than the force is because a droid is so predictable in its behavior that anticipation of its actions makes the guy dodging the blast and deflecting the attacks seem like a badass just because the mass production soldiers are unable to reason and instead just act on orders from others. (uness the droid is a character) This very important part of star wars movies is to illustrate just how much better warriors are when they are tune with a being/powererful energy other than themselves which seems like magic to the non-user of it but which has its own rules/laws that govern what can or can't be done in the movie. (eg darkside powers make killing easier and light side powers seem to me more defensive protecting the user and others from becoming evil and greedy and reliant on more power/brute force to solve every problem.

Now do you understand why the lore is so important and why the spiritual rules in the universe are appealing to us as old time fans? It's because of consistency. You lose that consistency when you take out Lucas. Yes he did some bad stuff but that was because as a dad he had a moral reason to not make violent war stuff and I think this is why he put humour in the prequels to lighten the mood of the movies as this was a stage in his life where he didn't care about the neckbeards as much as being a family man. (he was able to restrain this in Revenge of the Sith by not letting Jar Jar ruin the tone of the movie too much)

It's not that we don't think these movies are good on technical level but burning the temple is like saying nothing that happened in the past really matters. And it is akin to saying World War 2 was not important and we shouldn't celebrate victory over axis powers. When luke throws the lightsaber away it is like saying we should never have fought against the nazis and your grandad wasted his time defending the future against the power. Huge betrayal imo. The other issue is that we want new stories not retread of the old stuff. And we don't want yearly movies just make them every 3-5 years and have long term plan. Don't make star wars into marvel, disney. It's a lot better than marvel universe because it's not just about dudes with powers. Star wars doesn't just appeal to neckbeards and nerds, but wide audience. If dads take their kids to see a movie and the characters are weaklings what kind of message are you saying a hero should be? That they should not care about sacrifice, humility, courage, and consistent reflection of their past action? Nobody wants weakling people who don't want to be responsible with power. We want justice and peace and to get these things you need people of strong characte who can resist becoming a bad guy after they are tempted.
The writers should look into the reasons why discipline and hardwork are important characteristics of popular heroes. Spiderman whole thing is With 'Power, comes responsibility' and he is not the most powerful marvel character yet very popular in his universe because people can respect that. Feminists do not want this: they want more power, with NO responsibility and this is why the movie is failing.

If you like the movie then more power to you lol, .....but traditional SW fans need to let you guys know that for us the OT can't be beaten and will be seen as timeless classic because of the above things. (ie not a story about fighting and wars and spaceships. Not about cool powers that make you tough and unkillable and overpowered.) And if the kids of today like TLJ it is only because of lack of choice because the alternative to this move was blocked by disney due to not liking Lucas's ideas and also with the intention of killing off the original cast's characters so they can milk the name.

The toys are selling like crap and it has to be hurting disney, so maybe one day Disney will sell SW off and this might be a chance for George to regain control again so he can wipe out the SJW movies and either put in the Extended Universe or his own new stuff which he wanted and get Mark Hamil back on to complete the rest of Luke's Story.

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31 Dec 2017 11:02 am
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Ambrose Burnside wrote:
I kinda wish that Finn and Poe hook up in Episode IX just to watch the real snowflakes melt :lol:


I am praying for this to happen :D 1. It will be hot. 2. It will be hilarious to see so many neck beards die from rage induced aneurysms. :D 3. See point 1.

Ambrose Burnside wrote:
We saw Poe grow up by the end of the movie. He called off the suicide attack on the battering ram cannon and led the Resistance out of the caves. We saw Leia smile as he took charge like a real leader. You'll probably see your square-jawed fly boy in charge of the Resistance in Episode IX (almost-certainly now that Carrie Fisher is one with the Force). Put down the tiki torches :)


Why put the tiki torches down? I don't believe Oscar Isaac to be white.. so that makes it EVEN TEH WORSER!!!11!!!

:D

Ambrose Burnside wrote:
Space Leia. Still dumb

I was okay with this.. probably only because I so wanted her back :( It makes sense in that this isn't the first time this has been used in the franchise as a whole.

Holdo's lightspeed suicide attack. Yeah, I have no idea why this wasn't already a thing if it's as effective as it appears to be. But then again, the Empire built a second Death Star with the same weakness as the first, and then the First Order built Starkiller Base :) So they don't appear to be the sharpest tools in the shed, so in that sense it's consistent :lol:

Snoke. It's a mystery. Will it be revealed in Episode IX? Who knows. I hope so. We're only 2/3rds in.

Ambrose Burnside wrote:
Rey's parents. I don't know if Kylo Ren was lying (or the memories were false and planted by Snoke when he connected their minds) but again, more may be revealed in Episode IX. I like the idea that the 'chosen one' doesn't have to be a Skywalker, it can be anyone. It's a more positive message. Luke, Leia and Kylo Ren were like royalty, they were born into a powerful family. This trilogy seems to be democratising the Force (also fits into Luke's point during Rey's training. The idea that the Force is only for Jedi is bullshit). Makes sense if the goal of the Resistance is to rebuild the New Republic.


Agreed. The Saga began with a nobody.. it is not unheard of for another nobody to rise up.. which is what I think they did with that ending.

Ambrose Burnside wrote:
Grumpy Luke. He was so idealistic in the OT I can definitely imagine that his moment of weakness when he fired up his lightsaber while Ben Solo (his own nephew) was sleeping and the fallout from that split second decision would have broken him. I thought Mark Hamill did a great job. When he trimmed his hair and beard he also looked like Tyrion Lannister :lol: Yoda's comment that "failure is the greatest teacher" also ties nicely into Poe's journey in this movie.


Exactly. Luke had a scene of sadness when his Aunt and Uncle died.. but seemingly got over that quickly.. but that ultimately wasn't his fault. What happened with Ben Solo.. hmm he was on the way to Snoke.. but how it all went down WAS his fault and that's a huge burden of guilt to deal with.. and since he has already shown us to be a bit sooky lala and impatient and whiny.. it does actually fit his character.


31 Dec 2017 11:14 am
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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Ambrose Burnside wrote:
Ya'll forget Mon Mothma led the rebellion in the OT?


I didn't! :D

Froggy wrote:
The problem here is that they put her in as a deliberately short fat asian to check a box for diversity and then wrote in the most pointless story and then a completely out of the blue with no build up I love you Finn moment\kiss for two characters with no connection just for the reason to have them kiss. It actually was detrimental to the film but they had to check the box coz that seems to be a lot of Hollywood's concern for what makes a good film these days. There would have been no one leaving the cinema watching this going wow I hope Finn and Rose get together, everyone will be like I am meant to like Finn but he is a completely wooden character and Rose is on Jar Jar level of don't care it was a waste of screen time that entire side plot.


I kinda feel like you didn't really pay attention in this film.

1. Heaven forbid they include a character who isn't your typical hollywood looking person. In a galaxy far far far away I wasn't aware that short fat asians were such a problem. But having fat white men is completely fine. Actually that's a point in itself... people are more upset at having diversity than they are about how lacking and ridiculous the original trilogy was in terms OF diversity. I get it.. no point in being too angry about films from the 70's and 80's but is it that bad a thing to try and make something a bit more inclusive and I don't know - accurate?

It's disappointing and alas not unsurprising that people are more interested in her body shape and her race than her character. That opening scene when she was crying was so sad and it was done so well.

2. When she first meets Finn there is an element of hero worship.. and overall awe. This isn't surprising. Though since you didn't see this.. maybe the idea will be for you.

3. When my group left the cinema we were on Team Rose/Finn BUT we recognised this very ambiguous triangle sorta thing happening... though all of us were keen on it being a square as the Finn/Poe thing is still awesome and not 100% out. Though the Poe/Rey connection seems like it's most likely to happen now.

4. You are right.. Finn IS a wooden character. But I've actually been able to make peace with this since we simply don't know what his upbringing was like as a stolen child to be conditioned for Stormtrooper duties. On the flipside.. one could Han Solo was pretty one dimensional in terms of his story too.. Luckily for him.. he's had 30-40yrs of people building a love affair with him.. when by today's standards.. you'd be questioning if he's a predator (Leia/Han Asteroid scene).




Froggy wrote:
Yeah I agree with you here just I think more than anything I find it a bit lazy, you have an entire Galaxy you could make this film about something a little different to the first 6 but no.


That's a surprising quote as people were upset with TFA as it was too much like A New Hope.. and now this one in terms of Star Wars is quite different compared to the previous movies and most people are saying it ISN'T Star Wars.. I actually agree with you in that if you break the movie down to its bare bones.. It is somewhat similar to Empire.. but by saying that it's not different enough from previous movies is a bit like saying that a Aston Martin is a bit too much like a Hyundai Excel.. you know.. because of the spoiler :D

Froggy wrote:

She was complete shite, that fucking speech at the start was cringe. My point was the rebels aren't lead with someone just acting like that, to my memory it's always been a pretty open discussion area with everyone. We had women in every leadership position in the Rebels coz Disney,

Shock horror a woman ran a team and it was successful, so what? So a bunch of dudes were duds, if I take your example to Star Wars it doesn't work in fact it says the opposite. The Rebels are lead by an exclusively woman tiered leadership and have failed so miserably they a reduced to a low speed chase with a handful of people left and the one dude they demote just happened to save a bunch of their asses at the start by taking out 10 guns on his own. When he pipes up at the new woman who has dialog written in just so seemingly show a man can be downtalked as it was nonsensical behaviour by a rebel and at this point where there's like 100 people left was just stupid.


Your memory fails you.. Generally speaking.. Mon Mothma got up and said her thing in the original trilogy and it wasn't really discussed. It was a briefing. Not a forum. To be honest, I understand why you say it was cringe.. it was actually very american.. and that's the sort of shit that film makers do to appeal to their market. Like I said though.. women in every leadership position because as it turned out.. most of the leaders got killed in one go.. and there were men in that group of leaders.

My point about the team example was that it isn't unheard of nor should it be surprising that a woman can do that role.. and in the example of this movie - men don't always make the right or even sensible decisions... which is what we saw here.. and unsurprisingly - it's why so many men are pissed with the movie.. because it was some sort of agenda to make men look bad...

Your knowledge of Star Wars doesn't help your argument.. and again - it shows that you didn't really pay attention. Given that they have been fighting.. on the run etc etc.. we actually don't know what other events lead to the leadership structure and why it was made up of the people it was. They were lead by an exclusively female tired leadership because all the leaders.. were all unfortunately on a bridge that got blown up and only she survived. I can't find a clip of that moment.. but from the stills I found. The majority of the people on that bridge.. Ackbar included.. were male. Which backs up my belief that the chain of command was more about how the chips fell rather than this huge feminist push.

Poe had disobeyed a direct order. And it resulted in lots of people dying. Being demoted made sense. He was given another direct order and he disobeyed that too. We won't know if they could have survived on the run from a Dreadnought... That ship had big firepower but we don't know if the canons would have been effective in a chase. I would say unlikely. Holdo's response to him was curt and not ideal.. but then again.. I'd be a bit pissed and short with someone who just caused people to die because he decided to defy orders.

Froggy wrote:

I have no idea of the droids history in star wars didnt pay close attention to eps 1 - 2 and only watched bits of 3. My point above, hasn't Lea always been in charge or one of the leaders of the Rebels the entirety of star wars? I never argued at all that it wouldn't eventuate that there'd be some it's that the are only female leaders which is written and filmed to keep pointing it out, it's the kind of shit that makes hollywood tickets tumble.


So.. you're debating the finer details of Star Wars.. and you can't get the reference to C3PO and R2D2 landing on Tatooine... which is in Episode 4.. the very first Star Wars movie? Leia has not always been in charge. She's been among it but in terms of the movies.. but she was not a leader when you compare her to the likes of Mon Mothma.

Froggy wrote:
Well no this fails that logic when she was supposedly happy to have every other ship except her's run out of fuel (fuels a thing in star wars?) and everyone on those die. So the guy who took down a dreadnaught, which would have taken them all out the next jump if he hadn't, is not to be trusted for losing about 9 ships in the process and about 18 people. All as her supposedly great thinking plan was to let many times that die by running out of fuel in support ships and being blown up whilst telling no one why lol.


Again - you weren't paying attention. As the ships run out of fuel and float and fall behind.. you see the smaller ships flying ahead and into the larger ship. So she didn't leave everyone on those ships to die. I double checked that moment on my second viewing and as I saw the first time.. they covered that point. You just didn't see it. So your above point is completely void.

Froggy wrote:
I agree the GOTG villain wasn't intimidating either but Darth Vader took 3 films to best after failing and losing an arm in the second. We got the main guy now we already know she can beat up as she did first go so is better with the force, the dude who was more powerful than both got iced pretty easily so I just.. just have zero carefactor about the big bad ass who is basically a teenage brat with no intimidating ways at all. It feels too late to build him up inbetween movies and then watch the next one and suddenly take him seriously.


I see Kylo Ren being intimidating due to him being so erratic and prone to temper tantrums where he destroys stuff. As to what happens with him - I am excited by the prospect that I simply don't know.. Yes.. it's not your typical big bad.. and I am to a degree disappointed that we don't have that anymore.. but then again.. we didn't have it in the prequels other than we knew who Palpatine was.. but he wasn't scary.. but then again.. that could be me being an adult now overriding that.

Froggy wrote:
If they centre it majority on Rey and Kylo then it will more than likely be much better, Rey is great and a great performance again. If they had given more Kylo/Rey and Luke/Rey time and expanded that to slow it down a bit then it would have been much better I reckon. As I said, I liked it but I can understand why the nek beards are shitting bricks about it.

I made the mistake of googling how long luke was with Yoda for and fuck me star wars nerds are the worst, took one look at the first page of google results lol


I liked Rey too... a lot of people didn't and said she was wooden AF also. I think slowing it down would have taken away from the overall point that the rebels were in a race against time but I am also of the opinion that I am really enjoying this new generation of Star Wars so I am happy for any and all development but I know there are restrictions and a story to be told.

A bit more Luke/Rey would have been good since I thought there was a good dynamic.. I do find it hilarious the number of people saying that they got the Luke character wrong.. like they are some sort of expert on how people deal with guilt though.

As for the length of time Luke trained with Yoda? As far as I'm concerned.. it was a few days (by our standards) as there were a day/night cycles. But it wasn't weeks. Since they were all in the same clothes.. and none of their hair grew.

Apparently in a Star Wars Lego game it is said that it was a few weeks though.. I'm fairly relaxed about it.. mainly because Rey's development doesn't bother me.. and I suspect there will be more to it in Ep 9.


Much like ghost busters remake it is not fair to say the only critics against the movie are men who are against the feminist agenda. The movie sucks for other reasons like not being consistent with the lore of OT. OT = the gold standard of star wars that appeals to wide audience. Young, old, and anything in-between. It's a classic trilogy of good vs evil and story about forgiveness and rejcting the evil within. It's a very spiritual movie which became iconic. Unlike science fiction movies which just point out that greedy corporations are evil, Star Wars had realistic lore that governed how things worked so that it was easy to understand why some guys can do things while others don't.

FA and TLJ throws all this out and just lets random shit happen on screen without explaining everything and expecting us to actually care about that.
The best way I can illustrate it is this: in OT, we know Yoda is master level of jedi and wise leader. We know it is not easy to kill someone on yoda's level of experience. We know that luke is not on Yoda's level. He isn't as good as vader. We know the Emperor is better than Anakin because he has had longer time to train and being older he is superior at the mind game and manipulation tactics of using other people.

But.. It is clear who is the hero in the story however because Luke despite being weaker than Yoda is the guy we went along in the ride with from farm boy to jedi student. (who had to train at an old age and came in doubting if the force was even worth trusting in vs using his own human skill alone) In OT, we CARE what happens to Luke because we can identify with him and we have some emotional investment into his character since we saw him go through the journey.

Now in these new movies: little girl with no training at ALL (don't use luke's short time with yoda to train as an excuse for why Rey can just do anything extremely well even better than all the male characters who are highly experienced for why it's ok. It's just not the same thing and you know this) beats up people easily without any effort and just has powers. Ok fine have those fucking powers. But can you please give us some explanation for why she is special in the same way Luke was? Luke as we find out at the end was the son of a man with strong force power. That was enough. It gave us some reason for why we should see him as special because it established that some people are force snesitive or have an easier time controlling this mysterious force power thing. We knew luke was different by the end of Ep4 because the guy tapped into the force to aid him in shooting torpedo. He has faith. Faith led to him continuing with the channeling of energy and trying to control it and focus his mind on being good at controlling it. That's what allowed him to do it. What does Rey have? It's just something that was handed to her with no explanation. But it is supposed to be a mystery! Ok but this doesn't explain why she knows how to wield a saber with skill and no training. Did the force just teach her this? And that is the biggest flaw of the bad storytelling I see in the newer movies. Not the SJW stuff which is everywhere these days due to globalisation and trying to import these movies to as many countries as possible.

If these flaws can be fixed I would like it a bit better but to ignore that they are flaws is what I don't get. Chewie in OT couldn't just casually shoot Vader with a gun and harm vader. Chewie suddenly can ignore the power of Kylo Ren and harm Kylo with blaster because the plot demanded it in FA. This inconsistency with no explanation is what makes neckbeards go crazy as it removes the logical thinking fans' ability to make sense of the power level of people in the universe. Everything just seems so random. It would be like batman picking up gun and shooting the criminals instead of using non-lethal weapons. Or superman suddenly not being weak to kryptonite and no explanation was given. By destroying the 'magic system '/lore you make the world hard for us to care about. Since the characters sole existence is to promote a political agnda. That's what we don't like. It's not just that it's shit. It's that it's shit while trying to preach to us values that are not better morals than the OT movie. We want the OT moral system not the SJW moral system. But even if you take out the SJW moral system of females being tougher than men because the golden vagina makes them stronger force wielders, you still have the more important flaw of the movie never telling us anything about why things happen for one instance but other instances something different happens under the same conditions. EG Kylo freezing blaster shots in time, while not being able to anticipate Chewie shooting him later in FA for example. Girls don't care about that stuff and that is ok but it means stories have no danger in them since what determines whether people live or die is based on random chance not on the magic system. No magic system or lore or rules, means you can't calculate the danger level of a fight. Eg in OT if Luke tried to fight Yoda he'd obviously lose because he is just a noob. In these new movies you can't guage this. One minute the Kylo guy is shown to be incompetent and then suddenly he is kicking arse. lol

Having a lore master will help these movies GCF. Even the X-men (every character is diverse in this) have to obey certain rules. Wolverine can't suddenly attack magneto and ignore the fact that his own bones make him weak against someone who can manipulate them easily with his magnetic ability. Wolverine as much as he wants to just rush forward will know that the wizard has the edge over him in direct attack. Rules exist in X-men and its diverse. Why can't rules exist in SW too? No excuse buddy. Feminists ruined it like they did ghostbusters. The nerds are right. Extended Universe would be better as canon. Fuck disney.

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Last edited by GameHED on 31 Dec 2017 01:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.



31 Dec 2017 01:05 pm
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Ok at least I know who the touchy SW fanboys are.. remember I don't care about SW much so you don't need to run defence to me. I'll say it again I enjoyed the film.

When you moving to Cali Ambrose to go gender fluid? :lol: Seems your net logical step if you seriously can't admit to yourself that there's some high level social engineering going on with SW since Disney took over and let's face it nearly every other Disney property is going through the same in lieu of content. I personally don't think gay characters is a big deal in a star wars universe where luke milks in a seemingly erotic fashion some weird ass beast and there's some sort of bug person banging a human etc if u can fuck a fish hole u can fuck a dude and I think no one would care. It comes back to Rose and her complete inclusion only to have a non hot Asian female in a main role as a love interest for a black dude though, is it worth 30mins or more of screen time to put it in if it has zero to do with the actual story and distracts? Probably not I wouldn't think unless they can find a way to write it in where it's actually relevant. We had brother sister pashing\sexual tension in the first trilogy that they managed to fit in with the story but that was with the main characters and developed the dynamic between the 3 but if Finn is banging Poe who the fuck cares.

I don't think the next one will be a huge box office success actually with the reaction to this one and now zero drawcards left to bring in the old fans as they are all dead.. they could focus on Chewy I guess but I'm not sure how grunting will go over 2 hours. I just don't see any connection to the characters wanting people to come back and care. No one cares about a love triangle between Rose, Rey and Finn, Rose who 99% of people either hated or don't care about, Finn same as Rose and there's zero chemistry between Rey and Finn to begin with so no one cares there either. Maybe people care about Rey but seems not everyone and no one really cares about Kylo Ren or Poe and well anyone else.

Anyway, enjoy defending it for the next 24months with star wars nerds who care, I feel you'll both have a really uphill battle against the weight of neck beards coming at you crying about it.

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31 Dec 2017 01:27 pm
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GameHED wrote:
traditional SW fans need to let you guys know that for us the OT can't be beaten


The neckbeard lament in a single sentence fragment. And I read it in this guys voice:

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And it's also why it's so hilarious you guys get so upset after seeing a movie that by your own admission you shouldn't have bothered with as you believe the movie you saw as a kid can't be beaten anyway.

Those movies still exist. I'm glad you bring up the rebooted Ghostbusters too. I couldn't stand it. But like Star Wars the originals still exist (although even Ghostbusters 2 wasn't that great either) and haven't been diminished in any way.

Froggy wrote:
We had brother sister pashing\sexual tension in the first trilogy


For me Rose actually came across as a kid sister in awe of her much older and cooler brother so for me the kiss was weird because of that :lol:

Kylo Ren is the biggest troll in the galaxy when he came out with the line "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." And with that line (one of the main themes of the movie) we felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of neckbeards suddenly cried out in terror. Unlike Alderaan they will never be silenced but hey, at the end of the day most people understand it's a kid's movie, so who cares? :)

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31 Dec 2017 04:34 pm
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GameHED wrote:
Much like ghost busters remake it is not fair to say the only critics against the movie are men who are against the feminist agenda. The movie sucks for other reasons like not being consistent with the lore of OT. OT = the gold standard of star wars that appeals to wide audience. Young, old, and anything in-between. It's a classic trilogy of good vs evil and story about forgiveness and rejcting the evil within. It's a very spiritual movie which became iconic. Unlike science fiction movies which just point out that greedy corporations are evil, Star Wars had realistic lore that governed how things worked so that it was easy to understand why some guys can do things while others don't.


How do you honestly keep consistency with a movie trilogy that is now 30+yrs old and somewhat dated in it's ideas? What.. that there was only ever one black man in the galaxy?

Here... I fixed it for you.
GameHED wrote:
OT = the gold standard of star wars that appeals to a white audience.


The lore is still there.. but just like all things.. we are 30+yrs down the road in terms of what our society expects and also what is acceptable.

GameHED wrote:
FA and TLJ throws all this out and just lets random shit happen on screen without explaining everything and expecting us to actually care about that.
The best way I can illustrate it is this: in OT, we know Yoda is master level of jedi and wise leader. We know it is not easy to kill someone on yoda's level of experience. We know that luke is not on Yoda's level. He isn't as good as vader. We know the Emperor is better than Anakin because he has had longer time to train and being older he is superior at the mind game and manipulation tactics of using other people.


See that's funny.. given that some fuck wits needed a disclaimer about the 10 seconds of silence situation.. that tells you a LOT about people these days. It made sense what was happening.. and for the moments that were unclear.. they were unclear for a reason.. to progress the plot. The problem with this movie is that it seems as though it was possibly too smart for trogs like you.

GameHED wrote:
But.. It is clear who is the hero in the story however because Luke despite being weaker than Yoda is the guy we went along in the ride with from farm boy to jedi student. (who had to train at an old age and came in doubting if the force was even worth trusting in vs using his own human skill alone) In OT, we CARE what happens to Luke because we can identify with him and we have some emotional investment into his character since we saw him go through the journey.


So.. you're saying that because you don't identify with Rey.. the movie is terrible.. because.. what.. you can't identify with a character that just happens to be a woman? Yep. That's completely you.


GameHED wrote:
Now in these new movies: little girl with no training at ALL (don't use luke's short time with yoda to train as an excuse for why Rey can just do anything extremely well even better than all the male characters who are highly experienced for why it's ok. It's just not the same thing and you know this) beats up people easily without any effort and just has powers. Ok fine have those fucking powers. But can you please give us some explanation for why she is special in the same way Luke was? Luke as we find out at the end was the son of a man with strong force power. That was enough. It gave us some reason for why we should see him as special because it established that some people are force snesitive or have an easier time controlling this mysterious force power thing. We knew luke was different by the end of Ep4 because the guy tapped into the force to aid him in shooting torpedo. He has faith. Faith led to him continuing with the channeling of energy and trying to control it and focus his mind on being good at controlling it. That's what allowed him to do it. What does Rey have? It's just something that was handed to her with no explanation. But it is supposed to be a mystery! Ok but this doesn't explain why she knows how to wield a saber with skill and no training. Did the force just teach her this? And that is the biggest flaw of the bad storytelling I see in the newer movies. Not the SJW stuff which is everywhere these days due to globalisation and trying to import these movies to as many countries as possible.


Let's be clear hear.. she's a young woman, you heteronormative misogynistic heap of shit.

She's lived on Jakku and has clearly had to fend for herself in terms of physical combat due to her existing prowess with using a staff. Her abilities are raw and very rough in terms of her style. In terms of why YOU need an explanation as to why she is special? I thought it was pretty simple. As best we know.. she isn't from any lineage like Luke was. She is like Anakin in that she is meant to be a no one.. just like Shmi was when she had Anakin. However.. we ONLY find that out when a prequel trilogy is released well after the original trilogy. This new franchise is competing against a COMPLETED trilogy that we've had decades to build affection, nostalgia and a knowledge base around it. This new trilogy is not completed yet.. so sit the fuck down and let them finish the story.


GameHED wrote:
If these flaws can be fixed I would like it a bit better but to ignore that they are flaws is what I don't get. Chewie in OT couldn't just casually shoot Vader with a gun and harm vader. Chewie suddenly can ignore the power of Kylo Ren and harm Kylo with blaster because the plot demanded it in FA. This inconsistency with no explanation is what makes neckbeards go crazy as it removes the logical thinking fans' ability to make sense of the power level of people in the universe. Everything just seems so random. It would be like batman picking up gun and shooting the criminals instead of using non-lethal weapons. Or superman suddenly not being weak to kryptonite and no explanation was given. By destroying the 'magic system '/lore you make the world hard for us to care about. Since the characters sole existence is to promote a political agnda. That's what we don't like. It's not just that it's shit. It's that it's shit while trying to preach to us values that are not better morals than the OT movie. We want the OT moral system not the SJW moral system. But even if you take out the SJW moral system of females being tougher than men because the golden vagina makes them stronger force wielders, you still have the more important flaw of the movie never telling us anything about why things happen for one instance but other instances something different happens under the same conditions. EG Kylo freezing blaster shots in time, while not being able to anticipate Chewie shooting him later in FA for example. Girls don't care about that stuff and that is ok but it means stories have no danger in them since what determines whether people live or die is based on random chance not on the magic system. No magic system or lore or rules, means you can't calculate the danger level of a fight. Eg in OT if Luke tried to fight Yoda he'd obviously lose because he is just a noob. In these new movies you can't guage this. One minute the Kylo guy is shown to be incompetent and then suddenly he is kicking arse. lol


I think you will find the inconsistencies from the original weren't exactly planned.. the problem is that we've had so much longer to consider the actions and reactions of those original movies.

As for your golden vagina dumb fuckery.. considering that it's been the case that we've had effectively 6 movies prior to this that ONLY had men being the focused upon force users.. is it that insulting to you that women would get a look in now?

In terms of Kylo freezing blaster shots in time and not being able to anticipate Chewie shooting him? Simple.. Kylo was on a mission and was not emotionally compromised at that point. He was focused and on his game. When Chewie shot him.. he was in shock from killing his own father... and thus he was compromised and thus made an error. That's how I saw it.. and since the force is very much attuned to a user's emotions.. this would actually make sense.


GameHED wrote:
Having a lore master will help these movies GCF. Even the X-men (every character is diverse in this) have to obey certain rules. Wolverine can't suddenly attack magneto and ignore the fact that his own bones make him weak against someone who can manipulate them easily with his magnetic ability. Wolverine as much as he wants to just rush forward will know that the wizard has the edge over him in direct attack. Rules exist in X-men and its diverse. Why can't rules exist in SW too? No excuse buddy. Feminists ruined it like they did ghostbusters. The nerds are right. Extended Universe would be better as canon. Fuck disney.


They have lore masters.. ones clearly better than you. It wasn't hard for me to rebutt your issues.. some simple logic and since you insist on making out that feminism is this god awful thing.. check your fucking straight white male privilege for a second and realise that there is plenty of Star Wars to go around for everyone. It doesn't being to just you and your fucktardian nerdolytes.


31 Dec 2017 04:36 pm
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So Ambrose, how do you think they will tie the story together in the 3rd? What is your prediction of where it's heading?

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31 Dec 2017 06:22 pm
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No idea actually, which is awesome. Last Jedi proved the folly of holding onto fan theories and hoping they come true. But I'll have a go at a few bits and pieces :D

I still hope Snoke is Darth Plagueis and isn't actually dead. I didn't like how the prequels kept having new villains as the old one died off (Maul, Dooku, Grievous) so having both Snoke and Kylo Ren across the whole trilogy will be nice.

I suspect there will be a bit of a time-jump to account for Carrie Fisher's death (like the one between Episodes I and II) but I hope they don't have the re-cast Broom Boy and friends (unless they're not in it at all and merely represent a broader Force Awakening across the galaxy).

Luke better come back as a Force Ghost.

The good guys will win.

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31 Dec 2017 08:36 pm
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