Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Cletus »

GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Cletus wrote:We will never know, thanks to Bill.
It was the better decision.
:lol: You know what's going to be kind of hilarious? Shorten might use this as an election platform next time around...unless there's a tastier flavour of the month and knowing how Shorten works, there will be something more important. He'll fuck the gay community over in a second for votes or union support. The whole reform issue is dead and likely won't be revisited this decade, so any chance of reform is totally gone. And people praise Shorten for literally serving his own interests in the guise of giving a shit. And the gay community sighs in relief. Shorten screwed you hard. He told you a lie you were more than willing to believe. Not for one second do I think the plebiscite would have yielded a negative outcome for the gay community and fearing the majority of Australians allows blame to be placed on people for something they haven't done. And so many have bought it. Either the gay community is totes hot for Bill Shorten or you're all as gullible as all fuck. One thing I draw from all of this is the lack of faith the gay community has in our population. Yep, that's a sure way to close that imagined gap.
I don't necessarily think a plebiscite was the right way to go, but I think stopping that plebiscite based on an imagined majority bias is an even worse way to go. It says a lot about how one side views the other and it's a bad look. It's changed how I think gay people see us.

Edit : I'll clarify that a little. I should have written because I meant, " It says a lot about how the group think within the gay community views us and it's a bad look".

I think I'm just a bit offended at being lumped in as homophobic by cunting Bill Shorten, and that the gay community are happy with that.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Cletus wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Cletus wrote:We will never know, thanks to Bill.
It was the better decision.
:lol: You know what's going to be kind of hilarious? Shorten might use this as an election platform next time around...unless there's a tastier flavour of the month and knowing how Shorten works, there will be something more important. He'll fuck the gay community over in a second for votes or union support. The whole reform issue is dead and likely won't be revisited this decade, so any chance of reform is totally gone. And people praise Shorten for literally serving his own interests in the guise of giving a shit. And the gay community sighs in relief. Shorten screwed you hard. He told you a lie you were more than willing to believe. Not for one second do I think the plebiscite would have yielded a negative outcome for the gay community and fearing the majority of Australians allows blame to be placed on people for something they haven't done. And so many have bought it. Either the gay community is totes hot for Bill Shorten or you're all as gullible as all fuck. One thing I draw from all of this is the lack of faith the gay community has in our population. Yep, that's a sure way to close that imagined gap.
I don't necessarily think a plebiscite was the right way to go, but I think stopping that plebiscite based on an imagined majority bias is an even worse way to go. It says a lot about how one side views the other and it's a bad look. It's changed how I think gay people see us.

Edit : I'll clarify that a little. I should have written because I meant, " It says a lot about how the group think within the gay community views us and it's a bad look".

I think I'm just a bit offended at being lumped in as homophobic by cunting Bill Shorten, and that the gay community are happy with that.
I have no doubts that Shorten is not genuinely in this. The discussion and push for same sex marriage isn't over.

As far as the plebiscite goes, would it have a drastic effect on me? Nup. I became aware of my sexuality in the mid/late 90's when being gay meant you had to be very careful with who knew. I guess you could say I learnt how to dodge and parry the slings and arrows. So as far as the negative bullshit campaign that would have been waged? I personally could hack it.
I'm not so sure about all members of the LGBTIQSTFU community though. I will happily wait a few years to get married if it means we avoid a hate filled rage quasar directed at those who may not be as resilient as I am. We have enough violence and suicides in this country as it is.

The faith that the gay community has in our population is increasing but it still isn't enough where we can actually feel safe to be honest about who we are. Many of us still need to survey the room and assess whether it is "safe" so forgive us being gun shy, eh?

If blocking this now stops a hate crime or a suicide or three - it's worth waiting.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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It wasn't until I was 45 that I first felt the full effect of discrimination based on my sexuality. I remember back in 2016 we were going to be asked if people of a different sexuality to mine deserve equal rights, but the people I was going to be voting for felt I couldn't be trusted because of my sexuality. It was a horrible time. There was this one bloke, a corrupted heterosexual cis-male union arselick dishonest career politician and alleged rapist who managed to brand the entire population as spiteful bigoted homophobes and the gay community agreed. With him. And I was like what a bunch of poofs :wink:
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Madmya »

lel

I was actually just listening to the queer show on 4ZZZ on a lovely trip to the local KFC when I heard them say the exact thing, that regardless of the plebiscite result the libs were not going to do anything about it. I guess it's possible, but I just can't see that being the case. It would be political suicide to not act on it if it were voted in via the plebiscite, shit, even I'd be pissed off at the waste of money and contempt for the public if it weren't enacted. Turnbull is also pro-gay marriage, so I think the only thing holding him back from doing it now is he can't afford to dog the conservative vote again. A plebiscite would give him a licence to go through with it. At least, it would give him the go ahead for a conscience vote in which case you won't need all, or probably even half of the libs/nats for it to pass.

It really reminds me of the Greens and the carbon tax thingy with Labor.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

As much as I disliked Teresa Gambaro.. she actually went to her electorate and gauged opinion and then determined she was vote in favour of same sex marriage. It wasn't a difficult thing to do. The LNP could do it just as easily but they won't. Saying that the plebiscite was their stronghold mandate is bullshit. I truly feel that the majority of Australians agree with same sex marriage.. I just don't particularly trust the ones who strongly disagree with it to be civil and not go in for the dirty tactics that may result in some poor kid considering to off themselves because of the depths shame/despair/fear.

I've been that kid. I know how hard it can be.

Governments are meant to run on efficient process, policy and solutions. There is so much wrong with our current Government system and it is due the entanglement of religious interest and money being scuttled around by big corps. If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it.. we wouldn't have all the money wastage we have seen.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Twiztid Elf »

Cletus wrote: Not for one second do I think the plebiscite would have yielded a negative outcome for the gay community
Truth right here.

I'm against the pleb because it's a huge waste of money and time and they wouldn't have acted on the result anyway. Just get on with it and give the gays what they want ffs. I think I'm representative of middle Australia here, and I can't even understand why it's up for debate at all.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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I don't get the suicide angle though. Is it because a legal document describing a marriage would need to describe an assigned sex to each party? Or is it the idea implanted by Bill Shorten that there'd be a grass roots uprising of homophobic Australians desperate to fill every corner of the country with hatred? I think if that were the case, there would already be a lot of anti marriage reform propaganda on FB or you know, anywhere (only anti plebiscite stuff).. But that hasn't happened. Well, not that I know of so forgive me if I never saw anything like that from my very diverse list of internet contacts. The only place something like that could get mass circulation and occupy any space that draws attention would be news and social media sites. And there's no way a fully fuelled hate campaign would get a foothold on the majority or any of the massively frequented sites. You know what will increase suicides? Getting married.

For me, the situation was that for the first time ever, a government was willing to ask the public if it was grown up enough to see two people of the same sex and yes we mean men you idiots, kiss and get married and hold hands in public and be free like everyone else. I wasn't surprised when Gillard didn't just do it. But I'm actually ashamed that this opportunity is gone. I had faith in the people. I really did. And it wasn't even an us versus them deal, everyone could "vote", LGBTQ weren't excluded from that.


And here's a thing that has occurred to me as we discuss.. Labor are in bed with Islam. Those votes count. The voting proportion of the 2.2% of islamic Australians would have overwhelmingly voted against reform. And Labor can't afford to lose that vote. Effectively, Shorten has ended any chance of progress and made it someone, no everyone else's fault and kept in line with the ideology Islam. Call me crazy, but....Bill Slimeten. Wow is he a slime.

I think Both Maddy and Elf are right too. They wouldn't have acted immediately, it's unnecessary but eventually they would have acted due to the decisive result.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Hercy »

So what you're saying is that it's only worthwhile for a minority group to be given the same opportunities as the majority if you can get some credit for giving it to then.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it..
Like... a plebiscite?
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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Hercy wrote:So what you're saying is that it's only worthwhile for a minority group to be given the same opportunities as the majority if you can get some credit for giving it to then.
No.
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Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Peppermint Lounge »

Madmya wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it..
Like... a plebiscite?
Essential poll has 62% saying no to public funds being used to fund the plebiscite.

http://www.essentialvision.com.au/fundi ... -campaigns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not that 100% of the population can't be trusted to be civil, it's the minority who will go hard against it that's the worry. The slippery slope people. Those who say gay marriage will lead to all manner of legally wedded depravity. Polygamy, bestality, butt pluggery. The plebiscite is nothing but a last ditch hurdle from the coalition's declining religious right. Why dance their merry dance? The govt spin says if the plebiscite is defeated it will mean years before SSM gets up. I doubt that. SSM has for a long time had majority approval so its well organised lobbyists will keep the heat on. There'll be a parliamentary vote. Coalition MPs will vote with their conscience which Coalition MPs are free to do. No one loses face. Maybe Eric Abetz ages another decade. Can you believe he's only 58?
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Madmya wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it..
Like... a plebiscite?
The LNP went to the most recent election with numerous proposed directives and polices. The plebiscite was just one of them and to be honest - for most Australians it would have been a very minor issue that wouldn't have swayed their vote. There were far more important policies to consider.

Just because you vote for a party does not automatically mean you agree with every single policy proposal they bring to an election. That's like saying for you to like someone.. you simply must like every single thing about them.
Cletus wrote:I don't get the suicide angle though. Is it because a legal document describing a marriage would need to describe an assigned sex to each party? Or is it the idea implanted by Bill Shorten that there'd be a grass roots uprising of homophobic Australians desperate to fill every corner of the country with hatred? I think if that were the case, there would already be a lot of anti marriage reform propaganda on FB or you know, anywhere (only anti plebiscite stuff).. But that hasn't happened. Well, not that I know of so forgive me if I never saw anything like that from my very diverse list of internet contacts. The only place something like that could get mass circulation and occupy any space that draws attention would be news and social media sites. And there's no way a fully fuelled hate campaign would get a foothold on the majority or any of the massively frequented sites. You know what will increase suicides? Getting married.

For me, the situation was that for the first time ever, a government was willing to ask the public if it was grown up enough to see two people of the same sex and yes we mean men you idiots, kiss and get married and hold hands in public and be free like everyone else. I wasn't surprised when Gillard didn't just do it. But I'm actually ashamed that this opportunity is gone. I had faith in the people. I really did. And it wasn't even an us versus them deal, everyone could "vote", LGBTQ weren't excluded from that.


And here's a thing that has occurred to me as we discuss.. Labor are in bed with Islam. Those votes count. The voting proportion of the 2.2% of islamic Australians would have overwhelmingly voted against reform. And Labor can't afford to lose that vote. Effectively, Shorten has ended any chance of progress and made it someone, no everyone else's fault and kept in line with the ideology Islam. Call me crazy, but....Bill Slimeten. Wow is he a slime.

I think Both Maddy and Elf are right too. They wouldn't have acted immediately, it's unnecessary but eventually they would have acted due to the decisive result.
I actually have faith that the majority of Australians would say yes to same sex marriage. I have no faith that the LNP would go through with it since they have MPs who have specifically said they would ignore the result of the plebiscite. This tells you a lot about the use of a plebiscite. There are numerous public opinion polls that indicate that the majority of Australians are okay with it yet our government wishes to spend $160 million on it.. and even then.. it isn't even binding? Put that 160 million into hospitals or renewables research.. funding for stopping domestic violence. A plebiscite is a waste of money.

As for the suicide angle?
I've seen and heard some horrible things regarding the anti-same sex marriage campaign. You just have to go and look at places like the ACL and the Australian Marriage sites.
I read these sites and think that these fuckwits are just that - fuckwits. The issue though is that we already have teens committing suicide regarding their sexuality and uncertainty about their life in general. Vulnerable and scared teens. I wouldn't have ever dared come out in highschool simply because of the bullying and fear I would have had to endure. Highschool is still pretty fucking terrible. Maybe not as bad as I had it and definitely not has bad compared to the decades before my time. Having young kids learning about who they are and then having to deal with this sort of thing?

I know of one guy who killed himself while I was at school. You are a parent of a son - If he grew up to and was gay - would you want him exposed to the bullying and hurt that comes from this topic? No. You'd be protective and you would want to make sure he never feared for his safety and that he didn't have to be picked on, often relentlessly.

When I was in Uni.. I was that cut up about it all.. I did consider ending it all. I hated that I was different and that difference meant I had to be on guard all the time and having to constantly guard the real you from all the horrible bullying and negative comments - it wears you down. I've grown and learnt from it all.. and I know now that I am very strong. I recognise that not everyone is as strong as I am though - and if I'm strong and I still went through a very dark patch like I did.. what of those who aren't as strong? How far will they go?
To be completely honest - because this doesn't directly affect you - you don't quite feel the reach of it all. A couple of dead gay kids a year won't sting you as much as it stings me - why? Because I've been there.. on that proverbial edge. The idea of more dead gay kids/adults is collateral damage that again - you are unlikely to feel the impact of. We have more than enough issues with mental health in this country - While I'd cope fine.. I am very aware that not everyone will handle it as well I will now.

The anti-same-sex marriage campaign will likely allow dredge up some very low and horrible people and their opinions. Kinda like the Reclaim Australia stuff. Being told you are incapable of loving a child and raising it to be a good and well adjusted human being.. it's bullshit.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Peppermint Lounge wrote:
Madmya wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it..
Like... a plebiscite?
Essential poll has 62% saying no to public funds being used to fund the plebiscite.

http://www.essentialvision.com.au/fundi ... -campaigns" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not that 100% of the population can't be trusted to be civil, it's the minority who will go hard against it that's the worry. The slippery slope people. Those who say gay marriage will lead to all manner of legally wedded depravity. Polygamy, bestality, butt pluggery. The plebiscite is nothing but a last ditch hurdle from the coalition's declining religious right. Why dance their merry dance? The govt spin says if the plebiscite is defeated it will mean years before SSM gets up. I doubt that. SSM has for a long time had majority approval so its well organised lobbyists will keep the heat on. There'll be a parliamentary vote. Coalition MPs will vote with their conscience which Coalition MPs are free to do. No one loses face. Maybe Eric Abetz ages another decade. Can you believe he's only 58?
Eloquent as per usual :)
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Madmya »

GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Madmya wrote:
GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:If we actually looked at what the majority of Australians wanted and just did it..
Like... a plebiscite?
The LNP went to the most...
Whoa, it was a joke. You described a plebiscite.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

I think you will find on this particular case, Australians don't want to spend/waste $160 Million on a non-binding opinion poll.. they would prefer it just get sorted in parliament. ;)

I mean seriously.. they could have just worked the question into the census.. Cheaper and a better way to gauge the public.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Twit »

Asking opinions in the census would be a bad idea – people would want to stack it so you’d end up with 50 people in every household and that sort of thing. It would throw off the purpose of the census. What we need is a ‘Straya Card plus online direct democracy for cases like this.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Twit wrote:Asking opinions in the census would be a bad idea – people would want to stack it so you’d end up with 50 people in every household and that sort of thing. It would throw off the purpose of the census. What we need is a ‘Straya Card plus online direct democracy for cases like this.
The logistics are problematic indeed.. but stacking would be obvious not to mention a major disparity when you compare actual population figures.
They could easily make something the equivalent of online plebiscite. There have been examples that surfaces after the census debacle.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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Peppermint Lounge wrote:Maybe Eric Abetz ages another decade. Can you believe he's only 58?
What! :shock:
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote: I know of one guy who killed himself while I was at school. You are a parent of a son - If he grew up to and was gay - would you want him exposed to the bullying and hurt that comes from this topic? No. You'd be protective and you would want to make sure he never feared for his safety and that he didn't have to be picked on, often relentlessly.
Of course not. Look, he wanted a pink Mini Mouse tea set earlier this week and I happily obliged. I'd have liked the plebiscite issue over and done with, if only so it's not an issue when he grows up. And being jo public, I'm a bit over it. Now it will still drag on for even more years. But there will never be a utopia. Not while religion exists. Being neither gay or religious, I see a kind of even line between the two sides. You can tell the religious side they're wrong but they'll tell you the same thing. Tell the gay side that they should respect the beliefs of the religious and homophobic and they'll freak out.Both sides have complete faith in their position. The cost argument from a Labor supporter is a bit rich though. In Victoria, our current Labor government burned 600 trillion dollars on ripping up contracts for a road development. It might have been 900 trillion. Someone here will know. The libs spending 160 million seemed small by comparison. I doubt it adds up to the cost of building hospital car park.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

If anything I support the Greens more. There will always be a blur in support. There are things that the LNP have planned that directly benefit me.. but that doesn't mean I support them. It comes down to which party has the most agreeable policies and Labor and The Greens have more that I align with. It doesn't mean I agree with everything they do.

Telling the gay side to respect the beliefs of the religious and homophobic isn't the problem... Yes - there are definitely gays that are shitheads about it and go overboard.. but then again.. the issue is that more times than not... it's the religious and homophobic camp that are enforcing their beliefs on us. Denying same sex marriage and also saying that same sex adoption/child rearing is child abuse and ultimately pushing the stigma which makes it hard and sometimes not possible for same sex couples to lead the lives that other people are allowed to. We kinda have a reason/excuse to be pissed off.
I don't tell any religious people how to live their life and know that I have no business to do so.. but we have members of the ACL lobbying to stop me from leading a life that has no impact on them.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Twit »

Here’s one way Turnbull could handle it: Wait until the last sitting day of parliament before a break. Have Christopher Pyne or one of his lackeys tell a few conservative members that it’s okay if they slip out early in order to get home or whatever. Tip off the ALP and Greens about it so they can table a bill. House divides, ayes have the numbers, and off it goes to the Senate. Turnbull is temporarily embarrassed but can blame the skiving conservatives and put the whole thing behind him, ALP can make fun of the government for a while and get the legislation through the lower house, progress is made.

Of course that will never happen, but it’s possible (I think).
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Madmya »

Penny Wong wouldn't risk her ministerial position for SSM (not Sega Saturn Magazine), why would the entire LNP?
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Hercy »

Twit wrote:Here’s one way Turnbull could handle it: Wait until the last sitting day of parliament before a break. Have Christopher Pyne or one of his lackeys tell a few conservative members that it’s okay if they slip out early in order to get home or whatever. Tip off the ALP and Greens about it so they can table a bill. House divides, ayes have the numbers, and off it goes to the Senate. Turnbull is temporarily embarrassed but can blame the skiving conservatives and put the whole thing behind him, ALP can make fun of the government for a while and get the legislation through the lower house, progress is made.

Of course that will never happen, but it’s possible (I think).
I don't think that you can introduce new business if it's not on the agenda. The reason the thing worked a few months ago is because they were already debating the Bill in question that day and the LNP thought that the debate had been properly adjourned (when it technically hadn't).
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by Cletus »

Madmya wrote:Penny Wong wouldn't risk her ministerial position for SSM (not Sega Saturn Magazine), why would the entire LNP?
Yeah, having a "progressive" government with a prominent gay minister that were unwilling to pass this through parliament didn't seem to bother anyone in the gay community. I didn't hear boo about that. But a conservative government prepared to ask the majority if it's ok will lead to increased suicides. I still call bullshit.
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Re: Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

Post by GeneraL CyberFunK »

Wow.. that's *almost* like asking why women didn't do more to secure the ability to vote sooner than they did.
Why aboriginals didn't move quicker to have them removed as being considered in the Flora and Fauna section of our history.

The gay community had issues with Penny Wong when she towed the party line. You just didn't hear about it. Further to that, you have to recognise that the acceptance and support for gay marriage has been a bit of a snowball effect. As it has become more "mainstream" and the fact that Labor are meant to be considered on the left of politics, it was eventually going to filter onto their radar.
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