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You are doing some huge mental gymnastics here. You are saying that Labor didn't want to enact same sex marriage while they were in government, but then as soon as they lost government they wanted to stall the progress so that they could enact it next time Labor was in government. Even though they didn't want to when they could have.


11 Oct 2017 03:23 pm
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stanard wrote:
Froggy, it's given people a sense of legitimacy to spout their discriminatory views.

And as for mental health concerns:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/same-sex-marriage-survey-lgbtqi-mental-health-support/8955956

Warnings from the last few years:
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/mental-health-experts-back-labors-samesex-marriage-plebiscite-veto-20161002-grtg32
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/08/09/mental-health-experts-warn-government-against-very-damaging-sa_a_23073012/
Quote:
Research shows that around eight Australians will take their own life every day. That alarming statistic is catastrophically higher in young LGBTQ people, who are at a six times' greater risk of suicide than their heterosexual counterparts


If someone like GCF who is older and wiser is having troubles dealing with this, imagine being a 15 years old kid still trying to figure your shit out? Which relates to another crappy thing about all this is that they're releasing the results for each electorate right? So imagine the scenario where it passes nationwide by say 60%, but you're that 15 year old kid stuck in a small country town that only votes 30% in favour? Sounds great. Or as Matt Canavan said, should they just 'just grow a spine and grow up'?


Why talk about anything in public then? Right to life, aslyum seekers etc, people are going to get upset on both sides with any debate on significantly personal topics, there'll be a bunch of religious nuts just as stressed over this and the same reasoning applies to them no? This is more and more of a tactic to reduce debate and try and push through without any dissenting voices changes on issues because it's an effective shutup tactic. The SSM lobbying has been effective in getting multiple votes on this and then continuing the momentum after every disappointment but the paranoia they have had over a public vote is ridiculous if the years and years of polls are even half right there's nothing to fear.

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11 Oct 2017 03:31 pm
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Hercy wrote:
You are doing some huge mental gymnastics here. You are saying that Labor didn't want to enact same sex marriage while they were in government, but then as soon as they lost government they wanted to stall the progress so that they could enact it next time Labor was in government. Even though they didn't want to when they could have.


It's what happened. Penny Wong changed her tune straight away etc, then when the opposite that they thought was going to happen and the liberals were going to do a plebiscite and stuff suddenly it became real that it could happen and then oh no plebiscite is wrong can't have that anymore thinking that meant no vote would happen. Why else if you actually really cared would you instruct your party to obstruct the one thing that will get it resolved right away if you were so pro it in the first place? We lost an election but here's a chance to implement something we believe in anyway nah fuck it vote it down.

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11 Oct 2017 03:36 pm
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So why did same sex advocacy groups not support the process of a plebiscite?


11 Oct 2017 04:04 pm
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Froggy wrote:
stanard wrote:
Froggy, it's given people a sense of legitimacy to spout their discriminatory views.

And as for mental health concerns:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/same-sex-marriage-survey-lgbtqi-mental-health-support/8955956

Warnings from the last few years:
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/mental-health-experts-back-labors-samesex-marriage-plebiscite-veto-20161002-grtg32
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/08/09/mental-health-experts-warn-government-against-very-damaging-sa_a_23073012/
Quote:
Research shows that around eight Australians will take their own life every day. That alarming statistic is catastrophically higher in young LGBTQ people, who are at a six times' greater risk of suicide than their heterosexual counterparts


If someone like GCF who is older and wiser is having troubles dealing with this, imagine being a 15 years old kid still trying to figure your shit out? Which relates to another crappy thing about all this is that they're releasing the results for each electorate right? So imagine the scenario where it passes nationwide by say 60%, but you're that 15 year old kid stuck in a small country town that only votes 30% in favour? Sounds great. Or as Matt Canavan said, should they just 'just grow a spine and grow up'?


Why talk about anything in public then? Right to life, aslyum seekers etc, people are going to get upset on both sides with any debate on significantly personal topics, there'll be a bunch of religious nuts just as stressed over this and the same reasoning applies to them no?

You know what? No, the same does not apply to them. Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.

And as I said, this whole plebiscite deal (whether a proper one or postal) is completely different to simply talking about something in public. It legitimatises people's belief in their right to spout hatred.


11 Oct 2017 04:08 pm
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Hercy wrote:
What legislation will arise if the vote is no?

In any case, Labor is openly advocating for a yes vote, which is further evidence against the conspiracy theory that they are stalling same sex marriage.


Nah nothing will arise, I'm just genuinely curious. I know they've stated they would, but if No won... it'd be interesting to see how Shorten handles it.


11 Oct 2017 04:32 pm
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Well, according to Froggy, Labor wouldn't enact same sex marriage if they win the next election, so that they get the chance to stall it the next time the Liberals are in power so that it doesn't get introduced under a Liberal government, so that the next time after that when Labor are in power they can (not) introduce it.

Pretty obvious.


11 Oct 2017 04:37 pm
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stanard wrote:
You know what? No, the same does not apply to them. Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.



That's not "always" true. Sexuality can be a choice. I have a family member who was heterosexual, had several bad experiences with the men she chose and eventually became a lesbian. I would assume men wouldn't change teams though given similar experiences. Only women are likely to do that. Nevertheless, I disagree that Sexuality is not a choice..or is never a choice..


11 Oct 2017 04:45 pm
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Sometimes religion also isn't a choice without being ostracised by their family/fear of going to hell if they don't.

Hercy wrote:
Well, according to Froggy, Labor wouldn't enact same sex marriage if they win the next election, so that they get the chance to stall it the next time the Liberals are in power so that it doesn't get introduced under a Liberal government, so that the next time after that when Labor are in power they can (not) introduce it.

Pretty obvious.


Hah, I half agree with Froggy. I do remember when the ALP were pro-plebiscite. The ALP changed their stance on this when it was easy for them to do so, i.e. they could take the moral high ground and not have any obligation to follow through with it. And I do have that inkling they want to be the ones to bring it in, to take it to the election as being downright good cunts.

But that's just an inkling, you can't prove that.


11 Oct 2017 04:51 pm
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Yep, Labor are as slimy as you can get. And people just keep giving them a pass. They do want to be the ones that change the marriage act. Shorten sees this as his grand gesture. It's the only reason he changed his stance on the plebiscite. Shifty Honest Shifty Bill.


11 Oct 2017 05:00 pm
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Cletus wrote:
stanard wrote:
You know what? No, the same does not apply to them. Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.



I would assume men wouldn't change teams though given similar experiences. Only women are likely to do that


.....but but but, what about, you know, what about, oh crap, careful now.

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11 Oct 2017 05:17 pm
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Cletus wrote:
stanard wrote:
You know what? No, the same does not apply to them. Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.



That's not "always" true. Sexuality can be a choice. I have a family member who was heterosexual, had several bad experiences with the men she chose and eventually became a lesbian. I would assume men wouldn't change teams though given similar experiences. Only women are likely to do that. Nevertheless, I disagree that Sexuality is not a choice..or is never a choice..


Thanks, I didn't realise that I was running so low on eye rolls until I started reading this and couldn't finish because I ran out. I'd better pop out and get some more, before Froggy posts again.


11 Oct 2017 06:18 pm
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You wouldn't understand Hercy. :P


11 Oct 2017 06:45 pm
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I just do not see sexuality as black and white. Everything within a person's life can potentially influence their sexuality, not just a born who you are situation.


Lepo5 wrote:

.....but but but, what about, you know, what about, oh crap, careful now.


:lol: :lol:


11 Oct 2017 07:11 pm
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How would your life be different if you were married?

You have a lot of anxiety that you're being denied something essential, but look at it objectively, will a piece of paper change it? We have several people here who live very happy lives in defacto relationships, raising children, buying houses etc, these days marriage is entirely optional.

As I said prior, if you are concerned about getting more rights over defacto, then you can pursue that with power of attorney's to give your partner the control to make choices for you when you can't or you die. You should also have a will in place, I recommend everyone should regardless if you're married or not.

It will happen eventually imo, it's just a long process for society to change/adapt to new social norms.

Imo I see defacto as slowly replacing marriage, since people don't want the religious service, don't want the old traditions anymore. Possibly why maybe defacto law maybe should be improved to better reflect what society wants.

Take religion out of it and suddenly a lot of complications go away in this issue.[/quote]

1. If I was allowed to get married.. I would and also my family would feel better knowing that as far as our society goes.. we aren't different.. we have the same opportunities.. there would be a sense of not being on the fringe of what is considered allowed and acceptable. While I don't think our society is *quite* at that point where I can happily hold hands in public or anything like that without feeling eyes on me.. it is a optimistic and cautiously liberating feeling to think that we can step out and know that not only most people are okay with it.. but the law considers our love to be equal to everyone else.

2. Your insistence with regards to gay people getting PoA for having equal rights is getting ridiculous. I did follow up about all of this.. A marriage certificate effectively is done and dusted in terms of rights/equality.. yet you want my partner and I to get a PoA and commit more time and money for the exact same rights under the law? That is not the same.

3. You seriously don't need to continually remind us the time it takes for societal changes to take place. There are gay men getting thrown off buildings in other parts of the world. Homosexuality was only decriminalized a few decades ago here in QLD.. It's already been a long process. A process that has taken place and worked well in similar countries and even more conservative countries.
I am fairly certain there were men who said exactly what you have said.. you know.. back when women wanted the right to vote...

Taking religion out of things is always a good idea.. a great and currently working example is that people can get married without the church being involved. Fancy that! A law bound marriage with no religious involvement! If only there was a way to make religious people mind their own business about same sex people wanting the exact same, non-religious right!

Froggy wrote:
On the mental health excuse, remember we've been publicly having this debate for more than a decade with multiple parliamentary votes already there's nothing essentially different in the current debate that 90% of people are completely tuned out of anyway. My main beef with trying to use this as a reason to stop a political group doing something you don't want is it means we are now too immature to have any public debate on any issue of significance because that is the direct implication. Any public debate on sensitive topics is always going to cause some anguish to some people on both sides but it's not a reason to not have an actual debate and sort out the issues then just shutting up one side and doing what you want.


I'm well aware that this debate has been in and out of the public eye and also parliament. Insisting that the LNP had to hold to the election promise about the plebiscite is fucking bullshit. They backflipped and/or failed on other election promises.. ones that were more important than this. Yet the majority of Australians are in favour of SSM yet they can't make a decision ( you know.. that thing we pay them to do) to fall in line with:
1. good financial management which is what the LNP insist they are better at than Labor
2. public consensus based on the numerous polls they PAY for anyway
3. what other similar countries have already done with success
4. From a human rights perspec... LOL.. Petter Dutton... nuff said.

Trying to stop the Plebiscite was the right thing to do. While I agree that Penny Wong and Labor are somewhat opportunistic in their ways.. you can't forget that there are real people affected by this... and what they are pushing for is actually a good thing..

1. the cost of this has been unnecessary.
2. the need to have the mouth breathers of our society surface to give their poorly educated and bigoted beliefs has been unnecessary.
3. We don't get the option to voice our opinion mid term with regards to things like Adani, climate change, following Trump into war with North Korea.... you know - REALLY important things that affect us all.. yet they insist on not backflipping on a stupid and somewhat bullshit election promise of a plebiscite like there is simply no possible way to consider that it's a shit idea? Please.


11 Oct 2017 07:18 pm
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Hint: people with a string of failed straight relationships who find happiness in a same sex relationship were always gay.


11 Oct 2017 07:29 pm
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Cletus wrote:
stanard wrote:
You know what? No, the same does not apply to them. Religion is a choice. Sexuality is not.



That's not "always" true. Sexuality can be a choice. I have a family member who was heterosexual, had several bad experiences with the men she chose and eventually became a lesbian. I would assume men wouldn't change teams though given similar experiences. Only women are likely to do that. Nevertheless, I disagree that Sexuality is not a choice..or is never a choice..


So are you saying that at any time.. you might turn around and say "You know what? I feel like some man on man action from now on"

When did you choose to be straight? Could you turn around and simply choose to be into guys and genuinely like it?

If it is a choice.. conversion therapy would actually have a chance at working. It doesn't.

I didn't have a choice. And so many people indeed.. don't have a choice. It's just how we are.. and that's okay. Though we've had decades and decades of religious intervention to tell us that it is anything BUT okay.

I believe that sexuality is like a spectrum. Where you land on that spectrum will determine your preferences. Women are more attuned to their sexuality and can indeed be more open to same sex attraction based on their position on said spectrum.
Men on the otherhand have traditionally been bound by expectations of masculinity and can only ever be seen as straight... yet stats have shown that men are now more open to same sex dalliances these days.. because the stigma around it has changed.. and for the better.
There is a sub-culture of men who have sex with other men.. yet say they are straight? It's not as simple as saying there is a choice.. there is a grey area in this spectrum that is completely okay to be in.. I don't believe in shaming people who say they are bisexual. Awesome if they are say it. Lucky really.

Peppermint Lounge wrote:
Hint: people with a string of failed straight relationships who find happiness in a same sex relationship were always gay.

I agree.. the only choice they made was to bury who they were as deep as they could in the hopes that it would never surface.
If they were bisexual and decided their interests were being swayed to that side? Possibly... but to be honest.. if they were truly bisexual.. I would believe that they would just say that.. instead of saying they just magically changed into a lesbian.


11 Oct 2017 07:33 pm
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Oh no. :lol: . You're gay. You were born gay. Nothing will ever change that. I'm saying that for some people in their later life, Not You, (pretty much any gay man. I'm not sure if there is a known human male that was on your side of the fence that became hetero...it's like Jerry said, nobody ever leaves that team) sexuality can be influenced or chosen. You guys say because they were always on that team. But rest assured, I do not for a moment think you knowingly made a choice. I just think that it's a person's experiences in life that determine their sexuality. Mostly not though for gay men. I doubt I ever really implied that, to begin with anyway.

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11 Oct 2017 07:50 pm
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I think that when people are in that grey zone of the spectrum.. that is where social and I guess environmental influences can be a factor.

In terms of choosing sexuality? ehhhhh I think you choose how you identify.. not where you sit on that scale.

:D


11 Oct 2017 07:57 pm
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I honestly think men are more locked into their sexuality than woman are regardless of how a male identifies. I think women's sexuality is more fluid than men's and could potentially change at any stage in their life.


11 Oct 2017 09:39 pm
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Based on my experience.. I think both are more fluid than what people accept and believe.. but don't want to explore it for fear of rejection and/or the idea of being seen negatively.. it's not like our society has been all that accepting of it over the years.. though as things are more accepted.. the rate in which men admit to and do engage in same sex sexual activity has risen too... which implies that it is not as taboo as first thought.

In short. Still waiting for Hugh Jackman and Henry Cavill to get it on.


11 Oct 2017 10:10 pm
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As if a straight man wouldn't be turned on by a smooth little twink with a bubble butt and dick-sucking lips... :wink:

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11 Oct 2017 10:14 pm
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11 Oct 2017 10:45 pm
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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
1. If I was allowed to get married.. I would and also my family would feel better knowing that as far as our society goes.. we aren't different.. we have the same opportunities.. there would be a sense of not being on the fringe of what is considered allowed and acceptable. While I don't think our society is *quite* at that point where I can happily hold hands in public or anything like that without feeling eyes on me.. it is a optimistic and cautiously liberating feeling to think that we can step out and know that not only most people are okay with it.. but the law considers our love to be equal to everyone else.

What opportunities are you talking about? We've already established you can do anything you like without being married these days. In terms of social acceptance this is the point of the plebiscite, it reflects if the public acceptance is there, if 50% say no, 50% say yes, there are still 50% of people that don't accept your union as valid. Then there is a problem of religions ever accepting your union since most of their holy scripts consider it a corruption/sin.

GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
2. Your insistence with regards to gay people getting PoA for having equal rights is getting ridiculous. I did follow up about all of this.. A marriage certificate effectively is done and dusted in terms of rights/equality.. yet you want my partner and I to get a PoA and commit more time and money for the exact same rights under the law? That is not the same.

Here ya go free power of attorney forms.

https://www.rpemery.com.au/articles/free-power-of-attorney.html

Cheaper than the registered marriage certificate. You'll save on the celebrant and all the costs associated with weddings.

Government has lots of free resources for planning ahead, no marriage required.

http://planningaheadtools.com.au/

It's also a lot easier to terminate a power of attorney than to get divorced. No wonder people are not getting married anymore.


Last edited by lestat on 12 Oct 2017 09:57 am, edited 2 times in total.



12 Oct 2017 09:24 am
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GeneraL CyberFunK wrote:
Based on my experience.. I think both are more fluid than what people accept and believe.. but don't want to explore it for fear of rejection and/or the idea of being seen negatively.. it's not like our society has been all that accepting of it over the years.. though as things are more accepted.. the rate in which men admit to and do engage in same sex sexual activity has risen too... which implies that it is not as taboo as first thought.

In short. Still waiting for Hugh Jackman and Henry Cavill to get it on.


Oh the amount of married dudes into it are off the charts or dudes going for a Grindr hook up because the gf will never suspect it.

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12 Oct 2017 09:43 am
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