Up the Mighty Liberals! #inmalcolmwetrust

[mech]

A sample size of just 28 years?

Not denying things ARE getting hotter atm btw, I just question whether we know if they'll continue getting hotter, or if the effects will be as bad as some people claim.

[Ambrose Burnside]

Come on, don't be a retard, everybody knows the definition of WMDs: chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Righto, so where are they then?

He used them all up on the Kurds and his other enemies. Unfortunately for Saddam and his rather confused defenders, he forgot to tell anybody he'd run out

[Hercy]

Here's one of many articles from the 70s that shows how flawed and unreliable our ability to interpret and predict the weather from scientific data is.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 14,00.html

Backing yourself up with nothing but a swipe against Andrew Bolt is pretty lame. Why would a warmer climate be disastrous for biodiversity? Do you really think the climate of the world never changes?

Hmmm, well I think that the argument that because climatologists have been wrong in the past, that it follows that they are probably wrong now (or at least a sufficient probability such that the cost to reduce greenhouse gas emissions outweighs the benefits), is pretty weak. Technology has come along nicely since the '70s and so more recent climate models must necessarily be more accurate.

Of course the Earth's climate is very changeable. It's more the rate of change that will lead to large numbers of extinctions, than the change itself. Previous sudden change events like volcanic activity or asteroid strikes have led to mass extinctions. Even now, coral reefs like the Great Barrier Reef are dying, and plants and animals are migrating where they can. Human settlement and coasts restrict a lot of opportunities for migration though. Some species will flourish but the number of different species will decline. I don't feel comfortable about staking humanity's future on 'miracle' future technologies that will allow us to change the climate rapidly or genetically engineer plants/animals for the new climate.

As for BruceCamblzChin's comment about not being able to predict tomorrow's weather - meteorologists might not be able to predict much into the future about the troposphere given its huge instability, but the upper layers of the atmosphere are much more stable and do lend themselves towards long-term forecasting.

[Madmya]

The thing is we've only been recording detailed weather information for 100 years at the most. To say that these kinds of environmental events have never happened before is ludicrous. In the 1200's (I think) Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to inhabit and that period had high CO2 levels. Mars at the moment has also had an increase in atmospheric CO2 at a similar level to us. There's too many unknowns.

P.S. Scientists aren't always reliable. People like Garnaut need a crisis like 'global warming' to keep himself in a job. Every scientist needs their work to be important otherwise they don't get the funding.

[Madmya]

So you're pretty much assuming that Howard's interest in nuclear energy was purely because he was scratching his mate's back?

No I'm not. My post states explicitly Howard made it a public adgenda item when Ron Walker started Australian Nuclear Energy P/L. Simple as that. Whether it is in fact policy Howard is personally/morally attached to it's not something he raised in his decades of public office prior to that.

So yes, you are inferring he is scratching his mates back. I guess this means you are against a great alternative energy source then too.

The thing about alcopops is that it won't do anything to stop binge drinking. Case in point: my housemates younger sister (18) went with her friends to buy some drinks only to find that whatever they were getting cost $80/carton. 'Fuck that' they said and bought a bottle of vodka, bag of goon and lemonade and made jungle juice. +1 for stopping binge drinking!

So what? That's after the fact. The fact being there was a tax loophole blatantly exploited by the alcohol industry and that loophole is now plugged. Of course binge drinking will continue as it always has but alcopops which as mentioned are deliberately targetted at young people and low income earners deserve all they get.

Ohh it's after the fact. How convenient. Krudd redeemed.

[westical]

So how else did Howard destory Australia apart from sending a few troops to Iraq and causing global warming?

[unfnknblvbl]

how's Rudd destroyed the country by putting a tax on premixed drinks?

[Hercy]

The thing is we've only been recording detailed weather information for 100 years at the most. To say that these kinds of environmental events have never happened before is ludicrous. In the 1200's (I think) Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to inhabit and that period had high CO2 levels.

This just isn't true at all. Core samples can reveal CO2 levels and other climatic conditions. CO2 levels have been pretty level until the commencement of the modern industrial age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 400kyr.png

[westical]

how's Rudd destroyed the country by putting a tax on premixed drinks?

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 62,00.html

[Madmya]

The thing is we've only been recording detailed weather information for 100 years at the most. To say that these kinds of environmental events have never happened before is ludicrous. In the 1200's (I think) Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to inhabit and that period had high CO2 levels.

This just isn't true at all. Core samples can reveal CO2 levels and other climatic conditions. CO2 levels have been pretty level until the commencement of the modern industrial age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 400kyr.png

Oh yeah, core samples. I suppose these also say that 2005 was the hottest year on record too.

[Hercy]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[unfnknblvbl]

how's Rudd destroyed the country by putting a tax on premixed drinks?

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 62,00.html

And that's Rudd/Labor's fault, is it? You'd be fucking stupid to think that any economic problems we have at the moment are solely due to the new government, like saying that low interest rates in the late 90s/early 00s were solely due to Howard's government. The housing market bubble has been predicted to burst for years now, and now that it's finally showing signs of faltering, it's because of Rudd/Labor, right?

It's been six months. At least give it 18-24 months before you pull the "ruined the country" card out from wherever it's hiding.

[Madmya]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

What I was trying to say is everyone is up in arms about 2005 (or whatever, it was a few years ago) was the hottest year on record yet we've only been recording temps for 100 years. Core samples don't help that. And while we're on core samples I don't even know how reliable they are to begin with. They're assuming the physical circumstance of that particular area is constant. Load of shit if you ask me.

[westical]

how's Rudd destroyed the country by putting a tax on premixed drinks?

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 62,00.html

And that's Rudd/Labor's fault, is it? You'd be fucking stupid to think that any economic problems we have at the moment are solely due to the new government, like saying that low interest rates in the late 90s/early 00s were solely due to Howard's government. The housing market bubble has been predicted to burst for years now, and now that it's finally showing signs of faltering, it's because of Rudd/Labor, right?

It's been six months. At least give it 18-24 months before you pull the "ruined the country" card out from wherever it's hiding.

If they even last that long.

[mech]

The thing is we've only been recording detailed weather information for 100 years at the most. To say that these kinds of environmental events have never happened before is ludicrous. In the 1200's (I think) Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to inhabit and that period had high CO2 levels.

This just isn't true at all. Core samples can reveal CO2 levels and other climatic conditions. CO2 levels have been pretty level until the commencement of the modern industrial age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 400kyr.png

And yet the earth has gone through warming phases before... without a greater concentration of carbon dioxide.

[Madmya]

Exactly.

This is something interesting I just found. You can't exactly take it as fact but it's another reason why we can't just take some scientists views and run with it. For some reason we always love to blame ourselves for everything.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_reliable_" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... atmosphere

Edit: Actually, there's quite a lot of information on the webs about the unreliability of core samples. What a surprise.

[Hercy]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

What I was trying to say is everyone is up in arms about 2005 (or whatever, it was a few years ago) was the hottest year on record yet we've only been recording temps for 100 years. Core samples don't help that. And while we're on core samples I don't even know how reliable they are to begin with. They're assuming the physical circumstance of that particular area is constant. Load of shit if you ask me.

I don't know how reliable core samples are either, because neither of us are climatologists. That's why I leave it to people who dedicate their working life to the science to decide the efficacy of core sampling and other temperature measuring techniques for me, instead of asking you.

[Madmya]

I saved you the trouble sunshine.

[Vzzzbx]

You'd be fucking stupid to think that any economic problems we have at the moment are solely due to the new government

We've been talking about this for years. The only people who ignored us were the Howard voters, who (predictably) are only just noticing it now, and trying desperately to pin it all on the bloke who's been there for six months.

[Madmya]

Deja vu.

[Peppermint Lounge]

So yes, you are inferring he is scratching his mates back. I guess this means you are against a great alternative energy source then too.

Why would my thinking Howard is a wretched stain + acknowledging the timing of his announced support for nuclear energy coinciding with his 20 year chum's launching of Australian Nuclear Energy Pty Ltd mean I am against nuclear energy? You're such a blind fanboy about everything you assume everyone else thinks like you. Nuclear energy has its pros and cons.

Ohh it's after the fact. How convenient. Krudd redeemed.

What? What do you mean how convenient? That binge drinkers will load up on drinks other than alcopops is irrelevant and separate to the exploitation of a tax system loophole by the alcohol industry via the proliferation of high-strength alcopops. And fuck Kevin Rudd - if you weren't such a brand fanboy you might observe Keven Rudd is pretty much aligned with John Howard.

[Madmya]

So yes, you are inferring he is scratching his mates back. I guess this means you are against a great alternative energy source then too.

Why would my thinking Howard is a wretched stain + acknowledging the timing of his announced support for nuclear energy coinciding with his 20 year chum's launching of Australian Nuclear Energy Pty Ltd mean I am against nuclear energy? You're such a blind fanboy about everything you assume everyone else thinks like you. Nuclear energy has its pros and cons.

I just don't understand why your were against Howard's stance on nuclear energy in the first place. First I asked if it was because he was scratching a mates back to which you said 'No' so what else could it be? That you hate nuclear energy was the assumption I came to. Which is obviously wrong too.

Ohh it's after the fact. How convenient. Krudd redeemed.

What? What do you mean how convenient? That binge drinkers will load up on drinks other than alcopops is irrelevant and separate to the exploitation of a tax system loophole by the alcohol industry via the proliferation of high-strength alcopops. And fuck Kevin Rudd - if you weren't such a brand fanboy you might observe Keven Rudd is pretty much aligned with John Howard.

It's convenient that there was a loophole which makes this okay according to you, that's what.

[unfnknblvbl]

Rudd's the most conservative leader Labor's had in a very very long time, if not ever. I would not be surprised if history shows him to be second only to Howard as the most conservative leader we've had. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about that; I said as much shortly after he gained the leadership of the ALP however long ago it was.

[Madmya]

Well he hasn't done anything yet..

[Vzzzbx]

Rudd's the most conservative leader Labor's had in a very very long time, if not ever. I would not be surprised if history shows him to be second only to Howard as the most conservative leader we've had. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about that; I said as much shortly after he gained the leadership of the ALP however long ago it was.

I said many times that if Rudd turns out to be half the cunt Howard was then we're half way there. It's early days, but so far this seems to be more-or-less the case. Still, it's a start, and Australia is already a far less embarrassing country than it was just a year ago.

Also, Howard's corruption was legendary. There's a very good reason he was widely dubbed the Teflon Man. This news about the reason behind his sudden nuclear fanboyism comes as no surprise at all.