Atheism

[Pat]

This is quite possibly my favourite topic in the whole world. Having recently discovered Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" programme and started reading a bit more into James Randi's website, it's really got me going.

Firstly, I reccommend highly the following videos.

You get the picture.

Did anyone else see Enough Rope on Monday last week (August 21)? They interviewed Mike Willessee, formerly of A Current Affair. This was also noticed by a reader of James Randi's skeptics site.

http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-08/082506yet.html

From an anonymous Australian viewer:

Subject: “Enough Rope”

You might be interested in Monday night's “Enough Rope,” a TV interview show broadcast on the Australian national broadcaster, ABC, and hosted by Andrew Denton.

Last night's program featured Michael Willessee, talking about his religious belief, how he's proved the Turin Shroud is real, how he's found a woman with stigmata who passes on messages from Jesus to Mr. Willessee, etc. etc. (oh, and he just happens to have a new book coming out which will have all the details in it).

Mr. Willessee's religious conversion event (though he seems to have been a believer beforehand) happened when he had a premonition that his plane would crash, so he prayed to God to prevent it. The plane crashed. Ergo God exists (no, I don't understand the (il)logic of that either).

(See http://www.randi.org/jr/7-30-1999.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the plane crash event.)

The stigmatic woman was real since he had video evidence of her, and you "can't fool the camera" (which is why, presumably, The Lord of the Rings is a documentary). Anyway, he's asked heaps of psychologists to show him another stigmatic person and they can't! They can't explain it! Not only that, but they enlarged an image of the woman's eye and there's something in it! Could it be a reflection of Jesus? asks Mr Willessee. Um, actually, it looks more like the reflections of some lights. Not that you'd expect anything like that when you've got a film crew around making a “documentary.” No, Jesus is a much more likely answer.

You also received a mention when the host brought up the subject of your $1,000,000 prize. "James Randi's a phony" was the only, succinct, response to that (relevant excerpt below and full transcript available at http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/tra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 718105.htm).

Our reader provides an excerpt:

DENTON: I think it's admirable, absolutely, what you're trying to discover for yourself and for other people. I wonder, though, which is why I was asking about your frame of mind, your desire to believe, why in these circumstances, with the stigmata for instance, with Katya, which you absolutely believe to be real and you've overseen the verification of it, why not hand that over entirely to people that aren't carrying any of the religious or psychological baggage you're carrying? Why not hand it over entirely? I know that the American skeptic, James Randi, has a standing million-dollar offer to anyone who can prove stigmata. Why not hand it over to, I don't know, a Swiss researcher and a German and an American research group...

Willessee: James Randi is a phony. I mean he forgets that he once named me Investigative Journalist of the Year and sent me a trophy. Fortunately I threw it away, I didn't take it seriously.

Well, Mr. Willessee, for all his fame and wealth, errs when he claims that I gave him any sort of trophy, though I may send him the Pigasus Prize next April 1st. Yes, I know, he’ll throw it away; though it’s incorporeal, I’m sure that wouldn’t faze someone like Willessee. That award he refers to came from CSICOP, nineteen years ago, before he abandoned reason and took on a mid-life crisis by accepting anything woo-woo that he heard of or encountered.

Mike Willessee – a frightened man who thinks he has the answers, but won’t look to find out…

Further organisations I would like to add to my 'hate list' include The Discovery Institute (the lobby group behind Intelligent Design under the false impression that it's actually of scientific merit), any and all religious organisations of any sort ever, especially those that actively encourage brainwashing of children by indoctrinating them from an early age, and Tom Cruise.

And one last thing: "Fuck you in the neck motherfucker!"
Penn and Teller are awesome.

[mech]

I read randi.org every week. Brilliant.

I'm an atheist and proud of it. I don't need to be scared by a god to do the right thing.

[GreyWizzard]

I dunno if you can really count agnostics as atheists. They just don't believe all the supernatural mumbo jumbo that's written down in what ever passes for organised religion but still believe there is a creator, or higher being/s.

But yeah... organised religion is a bad idea IMO.

[mech]

There are various different types of atheism, e.g. weak and strong atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Ty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... of_atheism

[Pat]

I read randi.org every week. Brilliant.

I'm an atheist and proud of it. I don't need to be scared by a god to do the right thing.

Exactly.

I dont pretend to know everything given my education - but what I have studied is enough to show me how much we DONT know about how the universe works. It's an absolute cop-out, to say the least, to assume that since there exists something we dont understand (eg how did the moon/mountain get there) then it can only be because some spirit did it. It's just making shit up!

When you actually start to look at how things are made, how they behave, how they grow and how they change - it's amazing how closely they can be described by mathematical processes. That in itself is an extremely fascinating topic. Mathematical theories can be proven, and actually seeing these well known mathematically solid models match the behaviour of the universe on various scales tends to reinforce the confidence that we are on a valid track of learning - ie we are actually achieving something.

It really shits me though, to see bullshit excuses for natural disasters as being "God's will", or having religious doctrine used as a justification for killing those who believe differently. "But the koran/bible/talmud/horrorscope says its true, so it must be true!" - well no shit, of course the book is going to say its true. I have no doubt that if jesus or mohammed or the budda were alive today, they'd probably be considered as contemporaries of David Koresh and worthy of Billy Ray Cyrus concerts ad infinitum.

Furthermore, I hate hate hate hate HATE the inane belief that it is only possible to derive a moral code with a religious framework. Which makes perfect sense given that the same holy books that say "do not kill" also say in as many words "kill the unbelievers". Great consistency there, fellas.

I say it's about time we start defining "civilised" as being the exclusive domain of those who have eschewed superstitious beliefs instead of searching for answers in a bunch of bullshit fairy tales! And dont get me started on the american "one nation/under god" issue.

Please note I am also enjoying the Ori storyline in Stargate SG1.

There are various different types of atheism, e.g. weak and strong atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Ty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... of_atheism

Put me down in whatever category best fits the statement "there is no god and people made this shit up".

[aristos666]

Hey everyone.

This is my first post, and I was going to lurk around for a while, but I suppose this is as good a time as any for my first post. So, hello all.

Basically, I am a huge Athiest, and this has been a topic that interests me a lot as well.

The brand of Atheism I subscribe to is as described by Richard Dawkins here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVQoxrrMftA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (I can't figure out how to embed the video). Dawkins' argument is basically "We are all atheists about most of the gods societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further". I suppose that might make me a weak atheist or even borderline agnostic. I do not think it is necessary to believe in a supernatural creator that has a large number of characteristics in common with other historical 'gods' that most modern people consider silly. I am content with scientific explanations of the universe -- scientific understanding of the universe may be incomplete, but what we have leaves religious explanation in the dust IMO. Why trust what crusty old tenth-generaion translations of ancient manuscripts say when we can do our own research and figure it out for ourselves?

Usually, my Atheism is not something I'll advertise. I generally won't say to a person that I'm an Atheist unless directly questioned about my religion (though I suppose the anonymity of an internet forum makes it easy to break this rule). This is because I find that there still seems to be a bit of hostility towards people who are atheists -- mainly, I think, due to some people having this bizarre notion that because I don't believe in God, then I must have no reason to act morally and therefore must be a bad person. Nothing is more absurd. This concept of morality amounts to little more than "the only reason a person should behave morally is because he or she is afraid of god".

Well that's my little rant. What are other peoples' opinions on the topic of atheism? I'm interested to hear what other people have to say.

[AgOnNy]

Atheists are dirty dirty evil beings from another planet. They resemble human shape and form but unlike humans, atheists do not have souls (much like gingers).

Unfortunatetly, atheists do not die like normal humans. When an atheist 'dies' they actually enter a dormant state (humans would be dead at this stage, but atheists are just in a slumber until they rise the next full moon as a truly pure evil being). Once in this dormant state, the atheist must be covered in rocksalt, then add a little bit of pepper, 10 cloves of crushed garlic and sprinkle some finely chopped parsley. The body of the atheist must then be set alight until well done.
The now dead atheist must be fed to children in a catholic run orphange. This will make the spirit of the child much stronger and superior to others in God's eyes and only the innocents of a child can truly overcome the many misdeeds and evil acts committed by atheists.

Preists have been performing the Atheist Cleansing Ritual for thousands of years, one of the most recent and historically noted events was WWII, what the fuck do you think the Germans were doing with all those detentaion camps??!!! They were perfoming the cleansing ritual.

If an atheist dies and the atheist cleansing ritual is not performed, they become evil and vile coakroaches serving the deeds of powerful evil spirits. They crawl over people when they sleep, leaving poop and eggs containing thier evil offspring in people's orfaces and generally terrorising humanity.

Simply put, atheists are evil!!

[selfish]

i can't tell if he's serious or not

either way, i'm bokononist through and through

[AgOnNy]

Oh.. im seriuos alright!!!

by the way, hello new dude, nice to see you're an atheist with the numbers 666 at the end of your name.

[aristos666]

Yeah, AgOnNy is right (hello AgOnNy)... we atheists can't go to heaven or hell, so we basically turn into zombies.

[AgOnNy]

I never said you turn into zombies, you turn into cockroaches!!!

By the way, do you have any cute family members??

[Megaman]

This is quite possibly my favourite topic in the whole world.

I bet the other gods are jealous of the devotion inspired by this Atheoid you guys worship.

[BOOMY]

*sigh* atheists. I'll just start by saying I believe in a god or higher being though I don't find spirituality in any of the religions, however my blood is of jewish heritage. Just about every atheist here has said something about not needing to told what to do in order to act 'right' - since when has atheism and religion been about morals rather than beliefs? You dont believe in god, whoopdy do, you dont believe it's right to kill someone either...and you managed it all by yourself without following a religion? well done, you deserve a friggin' pikmin sticker.

My reasons for believing in a god or higher power have nothing to do with morals but rather beliefs and philosophys. I am a moral human being cuz I am not a dickhead. Get off the high horse cuz you'll find most 'religious people' or 'belivers' with half a brain aren't going to argue with evolution, the history of the universe and so on.

And let me finish by saying this, Evolution and creation are coexistant. Evolution says all cells come from other cells but the origins of the original living cell are still unclear*. I'm surprised at you lot, after all this is the one fundamental that makes intelligent design not even part of the same arguement as evolution.

*I am by no means saying it was created by a god.

[Ambrose Burnside]

Perfect teeth. Nice smell. A class act, all the way.

[jizzlobber]

And let me finish by saying this, Evolution and creation are coexistant. Evolution says all cells come from other cells but the origins of the original living cell are still unclear*. I'm surprised at you lot, after all this is the one fundamental that makes intelligent design not even part of the same arguement as evolution.

yeah so a god started it all!!

if you get the right conditions life can start on its own, like fungus or something.

i'm not an athiest, i'm not anything, I just know these days we have more than enough facts to prove these religions wrong, and I actually find it amusing how fiction can give people such reassurance (afterlife for example).

I thanks my family for not pushing it onto me, and supporting me when I stopping attending those rubbish scripture classes at school.

[GreyWizzard]

I'm agnostic.

I just feel there is more out there then we know about, and can't close my eyes to the existence of a higher being.

I don't follow any particular religious belief and I think people should be happy to believe what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others beliefs and freedoms.

[mech]

Hi Grey, yes indeed, there is plenty "out there" that we don't know about, indeed there is a lot here on earth we don't know about.

But as for a god? We have no proof one way or another, yes, so there could be one. But if a god made us, who made that god? A lot of religious people seem to think things end there, but why not bring it back a level, and say we just are?

But I do agree with your last point. As long as your belief doesn't affect anyone, you should be allowed to believe whatever you want.

[mech]

*sigh* atheists. I'll just start by saying I believe in a god or higher being though I don't find spirituality in any of the religions, however my blood is of jewish heritage. Just about every atheist here has said something about not needing to told what to do in order to act 'right' - since when has atheism and religion been about morals rather than beliefs? You dont believe in god, whoopdy do, you dont believe it's right to kill someone either...and you managed it all by yourself without following a religion? well done, you deserve a friggin' pikmin sticker.

My reasons for believing in a god or higher power have nothing to do with morals but rather beliefs and philosophys. I am a moral human being cuz I am not a dickhead. Get off the high horse cuz you'll find most 'religious people' or 'belivers' with half a brain aren't going to argue with evolution, the history of the universe and so on.

And let me finish by saying this, Evolution and creation are coexistant. Evolution says all cells come from other cells but the origins of the original living cell are still unclear*. I'm surprised at you lot, after all this is the one fundamental that makes intelligent design not even part of the same arguement as evolution.

*I am by no means saying it was created by a god.

You're a moron. A lot of religions say that morality is defined by their god and that Atheists therefore have no morality. Maybe learn something about what you're arguing about before you argue about it eh?

And btw, how do, um, "beliefs and philosophys" make you believe in a god? Because it sounds good?

And don't try and tell us to get off a "high horse", it's religious people who rag out Atheists about their lack of morality. Atheists are discriminated against in the US because it's so religious there.

oh and finally, "'religious people' or 'belivers' with half a brain" who don't argue with evolution or the history of the universe should think about their religion of choice, given it contradicts what they're agreeing with. Richard Dawkins has plenty to say about this.

[kwijibo]

I'm not sure what the difference between agnostic and atheism is.. but if people ask me I usually just say i dont believe in any god, purely because i'm not sure how 'atheist' is pronounced

[vision]

...I was asked what my religion was the other night by some nutter yank, and upon telling him I was an atheist, I got told I was a heathen, and chewed out for the next 20 minutes. And this is in good old liberal California. He thought I was joking to wind him up at first.

[BOOMY]

don't try and tell us to get off a "high horse", it's religious people who rag out Atheists about their lack of morality.

Like you I act moral out of my own choice. Though I'm making a distinction between belief and morals in reply to this comment and those following

I don't need to be scared by a god to do the right thing.

You're a fool to think of religious or spiritual people as such idiots. All I am saying is that people act moral out of not being dickheads but they make their religious choice out of belief, spirituality and philosophy. There are wankers out there who miss the point and claim non believers immoral but..... there are also wankers out there who claim believers follow blindly for moral guidance.



And jizzy

*I am by no means saying it was created by a god.

As for my beliefs and philosophy leading to my faith in higher power? I just believe spirituality is a part of life and am not content with such a dead idea of spirituality as some people here. To me science makes just as much sense as spirituality, but if I'm not allowed to believe that cuz mech is so assuming and close minded then I guess carry on with your arguement children.

[Pat]

Evolution as an idea can most certainly be extended back to before the first lifeform(s).

What we know of the big bang and the elements formed, we have some well-developed theories of galactic, stellar and planetary evolution. So long as the ingredients are right, all you need to form (for carbon based lifeforms) life is amino acids, protiens and so on. Of which there are more entirely plausible theories to account for the development of DNA chains.

The *only* moment of the universe not understood at some basicl or functional level, is the pre-big bang singularity. Given further that there is no need for there to be a god at any other stage of the universe, its a big jump to say there was a need for one at a non-existant time (before).

[BOOMY]

all you need to form (for carbon based lifeforms) life is amino acids, protiens and so on.

You sure? I chucked em all in a glass and it was still dead.

[vision]

To me science makes just as much sense as spirituality, but if I'm not allowed to believe that cuz mech is so assuming and close minded then I guess carry on with your arguement children.

Good to see you're not afraid to show your ignorance.

[Pat]

Well, you can include 'the right conditions' where I wrote 'and so on'.

Also note that the fact you can't replicate it in the lab yet might not be proof of god.